BoxRec

Where do people rate Joe Frazier as a great Heavyweight, i have always been interested in what people think of this guy.

There is no doubt had he been around perhaps in a weaker era, Like today for example he would have held the title longer and been held in higher regard.

But, despite being in a tough era, he still held the title for a few years and did beat Muhammad Ali Quite convincinly before losing on two other Occasions.

His strengths in my opinion are his punching power, mainly with his left hook.

Also, despite his Foreman fights i believe he had a solid chin and a helleva lot of heart.

So how does the forum rate Smoking Joe.

I think Frazier's top 10 all-time material, definitely. I would rate him #5.

Marciano Frazier wrote:I think Frazier's top 10 all-time material, definitely. I would rate him #5.

I agree, he is in my top 10, just wondered what others thought of him?

terap wrote:He was better than Ali.

And some misguided shills run around saying that Ali, who was beaten so thoroughly by Frazier, is "the greatest of all time."

That view is fine until you say..

terap wrote:That's like the halfwits who say Willie Pep should be rated ABOVE the fighter who knocked out Pep in three fights out of four----Sandy Saddler.

Well, by using your own logic Saddler is 3/4 and so is better than pep.
and Ali is better than Frazier as he was 2/3

Can you see where i am coming from?

Frazier is in the top 10. I rate him as #8.

terap wrote:The only significant fight Frazier and Ali had was the first one.

Both went into the ring as undefeated fighters and Ali left as beaten.

The other two fights are of no significance, after Frazier had lost his title and his longtime trainer and manager Yank Durham.

The frantic sell of the third fight as an attempt to direct attention away from the first fight by the Ali salesmen is pathetic.

In the the third fight, stooge referee Tony Perez gave Ali 119 warnings for pulling Frazier's head down, WITHOUT EVER TAKING A SINGLE POINT AWAY FROM ALI.

This enabled Ali to stall and rest through the whole fight--which was a sloppy fight between two tired old men.

1. Carlos Padilla was the ref in that fight.

2. As detailed in Mark Kram's Ghosts of Manila, Futch made sure that not only were Ali's trunks kept low and the ropes kept tight, but he made it a special point to emphasize Ali's holding.

3. Those two "tired old men" set the all-time compubox record for punches thrown in a heavyweight fight. It wasn't broken for over 20 years.

4. Frazier landed a lot of low blows in that fight. He wasn't an angel either.

5. Padilla never warned Ali for holding, from what I saw. He simply concentrated on slapping Ali's hand away whenever he tried to hold. He was extremely diligent at it and was integral in maintaining the constant pace of the bout. He did a great job.

::Futch made sure that not only were Ali's trunks kept low
I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT FUTCH DRESSED ALI.
THANKS FOR INFORMING ME OF THAT.::

Uh, don't you think he could have made it a point to the commission and the ref that Ali's trunks be kept below the belly button? Have you read Ghosts of Manila?

::and the ropes kept tight, but he made it a special point to emphasize Ali's holding.
THEN WHY DID THE REF ALLOW ALI TO STALL THROUGH THE WHOLE FIGHT?::

He didn't. He was extremely active throughout the fight, breaking up every clinch Ali tried to initiate. I think you have the third fight confused with the second. You've already shown that you confused the referees of those two fights.

::3. Those two "tired old men" set the all-time compubox record for punches thrown in a heavyweight fight. It wasn't broken for over 20 years.
WHAT THE HELL IS A COMPUBOX?
I'LL TELL YOU ---sometthing invented by someone who never had a fight with his own sister---
presented to impress others who never had a fight with their own sisters.::

Will you concede that they threw a TON of punches for heavyweights?

::5. Padilla never warned Ali for holding, from what I saw. He simply concentrated on slapping Ali's hand away whenever he tried to hold. He was extremely diligent at it and was integral in maintaining the constant pace of the bout. He did a great job.
ONLY AN ALI SALESMAN COULD SAY THAT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE.::

Which part?

::By the way, YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT EDDIE FUTCH, now running Frazier's corner since Frazier's longtime manager and trainer Yancey Durham had died) BETRAYED HIS OWN FIGHTER AND HANDED THE WIN TO ALI by stopping the fight before ther last round.::

A completely unfounded and ridiculous charge. Frazier got the living sh*t beat out of him in the last 2 rounds. That's why Eddie stopped the fight. It wasn't a "betrayal." But you're the kind of guy who thinks Ali "quit" disgracefully against Holmes. Your bloodlust seems to know no bounds.

::FUTCH SURE AS H*LL WASN'T WORKING FOR FRAZIER.::

Because he didn't want Frazier to get killed?

::Everyone knows that vaseline KEEPS A CUT OPEN--and yet Futch did that visibly on national TV.

Futch was not a competent cut man---and didn't work as one. When Larry Holmes was cut by Bonecrusher Smith, Futch, who was in Holmes' corner didn't touch the cut. The cutman job was handled by Percy Richardson in Holmes corner.::

How do you know it was vaseline and not a coagulant?

::Futch allowed Ali to foul like mad in the third Frazier fight--and then handed Ali the win at the end.

It turned out Ali would not have been able to answer the bell for the 15th round--he fell off his stool as the round was about to start.
So sweet old Eddie Futch handed Ali the win.
What a great cornerman.::

He did not fall off his stool. He got up and then fell down some ways away from the stool.

Your recollection of Ali-Frazier III is way off. You can't remember who the referee was, you seem to think that the referee made a lot of warnings to Ali, and now you're saying that Ali fell off his stool, which is patently false. When was the last time you watched Ali-Frazier III?

Will you please answer my questions? By refusing to answer them, all you are indicating is that you do not have facts to back up your arguments. Here they are again:

:Futch made sure that not only were Ali's trunks kept low
I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT FUTCH DRESSED ALI.
THANKS FOR INFORMING ME OF THAT.::

Uh, don't you think he could have made it a point to the commission and the ref that Ali's trunks be kept below the belly button? Have you read Ghosts of Manila?

::and the ropes kept tight, but he made it a special point to emphasize Ali's holding.
THEN WHY DID THE REF ALLOW ALI TO STALL THROUGH THE WHOLE FIGHT?::

He didn't. He was extremely active throughout the fight, breaking up every clinch Ali tried to initiate. I think you have the third fight confused with the second. You've already shown that you confused the referees of those two fights.

::3. Those two "tired old men" set the all-time compubox record for punches thrown in a heavyweight fight. It wasn't broken for over 20 years.
WHAT THE HELL IS A COMPUBOX?
I'LL TELL YOU ---sometthing invented by someone who never had a fight with his own sister---
presented to impress others who never had a fight with their own sisters.::

Will you concede that they threw a TON of punches for heavyweights?

::5. Padilla never warned Ali for holding, from what I saw. He simply concentrated on slapping Ali's hand away whenever he tried to hold. He was extremely diligent at it and was integral in maintaining the constant pace of the bout. He did a great job.
ONLY AN ALI SALESMAN COULD SAY THAT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE.::

Which part?

Well thanks for your views on Joe Frazier guys

Frazier had 9 title defenses, an incredible left hook, a solid chin, was extremely aggressive, trained very hard, and most of all, he had incredible heart. The guy would never give up if you hurled bricks at him. Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena, but he did what a real champion does- he got up, and he won. No matter how much Frazier got pounded, swollen up, battered, he was still certain he was going to win, and he would go to any lengths to do it. Even when his eyes were swollen shut against Ali, he still wanted to come out for the 15th and knock Ali out! Even more amazing is the fact that Frazier was partially blind in his left eye, and yet somehow managed to come up with the best left hook in history!
Smokin' Joe Frazier, one of the greatest ever.

tyson50wins44ko wrote:Well thanks for your views on Joe Frazier guys

It's startling how Terap manages to turn every thread into an argument about Ali. The how great was Frazier thread, the Marciano's Opponents thread, everything. He's relentless, and he never stops repeating his tired views about how everything and everyone who ever said anything nice about Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard-especially Ali, though- is completely evil. He also used to post at ESB under the name Ruby Robert(I recognized him by his endless rantings about the hatred of Ali and Leonard) and made many of the exact same statements, word for word, that he's making now. But his account got deleted after the board messed up.

Marciano Frazier wrote:Frazier had 9 title defenses, an incredible left hook, a solid chin, was extremely aggressive, trained very hard, and most of all, he had incredible heart. The guy would never give up if you hurled bricks at him. Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena, but he did what a real champion does- he got up, and he won. No matter how much Frazier got pounded, swollen up, battered, he was still certain he was going to win, and he would go to any lengths to do it. Even when his eyes were swollen shut against Ali, he still wanted to come out for the 15th and knock Ali out! Even more amazing is the fact that Frazier was partially blind in his left eye, and yet somehow managed to come up with the best left hook in history!
Smokin' Joe Frazier, one of the greatest ever.

I agree 100% with this statment, he always showed great heart.

Now for the next thread....Marvis Frazier

terap wrote:Marciano Frazier is fixated on Terap.

He posts over and over on every thread here about Terap.

Are you a female, MarcianoFrazier?

What is it that compells you to post on every thread on this site about your Terap fixation?

Umm, I've posted on several threads to try and get you to stop your stupid habit of turning every thread into an anti-Ali rave.
Terap is fixated on Ali.

He posts over and over on every thread here about Ali.

Are you a female, Terap?

What is it that compells you to post on every thread on this site about your Ali fixation?

A new question.

If Joe was fighting today at his best how would he do in todays division and against the 4 champs.

Chris Byrd: I could see Fraizer hurting Byrd early and then byrd boxing on the backfoot for twelve rounds making a lopsided points win or late KO for Joe.

Corrie Sanders: This i feel would be an entertaining match, but with Frazier's power making Sanders and Easy KO victim inside 4 or 5.

Roy Jones: Roy would be unable to deal with Joes power and would not be able to dance around without getting hit for very long, almost like the bob Foster match, just a few rounds longer to do the eluslivness of Jones.

Lennox Lewis: I think this would be the hardest match for Joe, but i feel that he would be able to get inside the jab and hurt Lewis on the inside and score a mid rounds to late ko.

Any thoughts guys.

Yes Joe would eat them all for breakfast, no contest.

The only guys who would give him trouble are powerhouses like Tyson or Tua, or someone who fights with a similar style like Holyfield. However, Holyfield no longer has the energy to pull out a win these days.

Maybe Terap is right- Ali was just lucky

Joe Frazier was one hell of a fighter and a great man.

He was the epitome of a real fighter, when guys fought the best.

He had good reflexes, a very good chin, and a great left hook. His jab was'nt great and his right hand was above average. He was extremely well conditioned and had a massive heart. He was a great finisher, had good head movement and great stamina.

Sadly, his style was'nt conducive to a long career. He was a cross between Marciano and Tyson.

At 5'11" and a prime of 205 (14st 9lb), with todays advances in training and diet (remember these guys did'nt go near weights) he would be about 220lb (a very similar build to Tyson).

He was the first man to beat Ali and also had wins over Jimmy Ellis (2) Jerry Quarry (2), Oscar Bonavena (2), George Chuvalo, Buster Mathis and Eddie Machen.

He belongs in the top ten HW list. [/quote]

Point taken on diet and training.

I feel diet has improved. Fighters are able to intake protein from many more sources today which means they do not need to consume vast quantities of red meat, which is very hard to digest and knots up the bowels.

I think weight training has a part to play and, if done properly, greatly improves a fighters strength, especially in the clinches.

I feel that todays fighters are not as fit, because they dont fight enough. Being in the gym all the time is not sufficient, you need to fight regularly, but todays guys dont want to fight. Look at Robin Reid, for instance. He should have the nickname Halleys Comet.

If Frazier were able to use weights (like Holyfield does) he would have been even better. :)

I agree, Ali is over-rated. Although he would be in my top 10

My top 10 HW list is

1. Joe Louis
2. Larry Holmes
3. Sonny Liston
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Joe Frazier
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Jack Johnson
9. Peter Jackson
10. Mike Tyson

Hours before unifying the titles.

http://www.phillyboxinghistory.com/phot ... esspic.jpg

knockout artist wrote:I agree, Ali is over-rated. Although he would be in my top 10

My top 10 HW list is

1. Joe Louis
2. Larry Holmes
3. Sonny Liston
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Joe Frazier
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Jack Johnson
9. Peter Jackson
10. Mike Tyson

no offense but Ali at 7? are u trying to make a fashionable statement here. being a maverik or something? cause thats plain out stupid. excuse me. thats retarded. he beat frazier twice, and dominated liston twice. you sir are a fool

terap wrote:The only significant fight Frazier and Ali had was the first one.
.

im curious as to how the first fight was the only one that was significant... is this because ali won the next 2?

Corbett's daily training routine when he was at his best would kill any modern fighter.

This is one of the downright silliest things I have ever read on this site. Corbett was so tough that a punch to the belly from a middelweight knocked him out.
Why do so many people insists on making turn of the century fighters into superheroes? especially that all they got to go on is stories, books and old photos. Gee, I wonder if any of these stories were exaggerated? Or maybe because these stories and books were written by writers of the era, these stories should be looked upon with a clearer perspective. If a writer from the era said Sullivan was the greatest fighter ever, maybe he didnt have too much to compare him too.
If these fighters were so great how come nobody fights like them anymore? Because they wouldnt last a round fighting like that, thats why.

Hey theone, how do you know that all the fighters who have passed away over the last 10 years by mysterious means, were not fallen victims of the failed attempt to pursue the Corbett workout regimen? This matter deserves some serious reflection before any knee jerk reactive statements.

The truth is out there.


And as far as that list goes. I don't know which is funnier, Liston at 3 or Ali at 7. Peter Jackson in the top 10 is creative for sure. Joe Jeanette would be a better choice if your going in that direction.

George Fomeman also merits consideration for the top ten.