BoxRec

I Feel Fine
Post subject: Re: 1959-2009: The Greatest Fighter of the Last 50 YearsPosted: Yesterday, 18:41 Tyson's opposition in his first title reign was average, as was Ali's in the 60s. Ali was not only a great fighter but a hall of famer before he ever had a fight in the 70s. 60s Ali was the best Heavyweight ever to put on a pair of gloves. Tyson fans never learn.
Tyson's win over Michael Spinks will go down as one of the most overrated accomplishment in boxing history.
Tyson's reign of terror was real impressive when Douglas bounced him around the ring like a sock puppet.

- OK Bud, I gave you fair warning, so let's see if you can take your beating like a man without squealing.

Tyson age 20-23 vs Ali age 22-25 first 10 title comp head to head :

10.1989-07-21 219¼ Carl Williams 218 22-2-0 W TKO 1
~ time: 1:33 | referee: Randy Neumann | judge: Richard F. Murry | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Rocky Castellani ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1967-03-22 211½ Zora Folley 202½ 74-7-4 W KO 7
~ time: 1:48 | referee: Johnny LoBianco | judge: Frank Forbes | judge: Tony Castellano
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~

- Folley was too old, too short, too much of a light hitter to be a bother to Williams. Both susceptable to KO, but Williams a KO specialist whereas Folley a light counterpuncher. Williams mid round KO.

9. 1989-02-25 218 Frank Bruno 228 32-2-0 W TKO 5
~ time: 2:55 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 40-35 | judge: Omar Mintun 40-34 | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado 40-34 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
Bruno penalized one point in the 1st for holding and he was also dropped in the 1st. vs 1967-02-06 212¼ Ernie Terrell 212¼ 39-4-0 W UD 15
~ referee: Harry Kessler 148-137 | judge: Jimmy Webb 148-133 | judge: Ernie Taylor 148-137 ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~

- The only interesting bout. Bruno a solid boxer with power, Terrell a solid boxer with some height. I'd favor Bruno, but it's basically a pickem.

8. 1988-06-27 218¼ Michael Spinks 212¼ 31-0-0 W KO 1
~ time: 1:31 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Eva Shain | judge: John Stewart | judge: Rocky Castellani ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1966-11-14 212¾ Cleveland Williams 210½ 65-5-1 W TKO 3
~ referee: Harry Kessler ~
World Heavyweight Title

- Hmmmm, prime or near prime boxer puncher Spinks against a past prime near dead Williams. Spinks KO 1.

7. 1988-03-21 216¼ Tony Tubbs 238¼ 24-1-0 W TKO 2
~ time: 2:54 | referee: Arthur Mercante | judge: Larry Rozadilla 9-10 | judge: Ken Morita 10-10 | judge: Masakazu Uchida 10-9 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1966-09-10 204¼ Karl Mildenberger 195 49-2-3 W TKO 12
~ referee: Teddy Waltham | judge: Herr Olert | judge: Nat Fleischer ~
World Heavyweight Title

- Tubbs a bit porky, but big, strong, prime and a very fast handed boxer. Mildy quick, but undersized and out gunned, LTKO mid rounds.

6. 1988-01-22 215¾ Larry Holmes 225¾ 48-2-0 W TKO 4
~ time: 2:55 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Charley Spina 29-28 | judge: Nicasio L. Drake 30-27 | judge: Rudy Ortega 29-28 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1966-08-06 209½ Brian London 201½ 35-13-0 W KO 3
~ referee: Harry Gibbs ~
World Heavyweight Title

- Big critic of Holmes, but London? Sheeeeesh! KO by Larry early rounds.

5. 1987-10-16 216 Tyrell Biggs 228¾ 15-0-0 W TKO 7
~ time: 2:59 | referee: Tony Orlando | judge: Al Wilensky 60-54 | judge: John Stewart 60-54 | judge: Frank Brunette 60-52 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1966-05-21 201½ Henry Cooper 188 33-11-1 W TKO 6
~ time: 1:38 | referee: George Smith ~
World Heavyweight Title
A bad cut over Cooper's left eye forced stoppage.

- Biggs a bigger stronger Olympic superheavy gold medalist Ali clone. Same result as the original, Cooper LTKO midrounds.

4. 1987-08-01 221 Tony Tucker 221 35-0-0 W UD 12
~ referee: Mills Lane | judge: Julio Roldan 118-113 | judge: Phil Newman 119-111 | judge: Bill Graham 117-112 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs 1966-03-29 214½ George Chuvalo 216 34-11-2 W UD 15
~ referee: Jackie Silvers 73-65 | judge: Tony Canzano 74-63 | judge: Jackie Johnstone 74-62 ~
World Heavyweight Title

- Tucker could beat Chuvalo with his unbroken left tied behind his back. No contest.

3. 1987-05-30 218¾ Pinklon Thomas 217¾ 29-1-1 W TKO 6
~ time: 2:00 | referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Dalby Shirley 49-46 | judge: Gordon Volkman 50-44 | judge: Harry Gibbs 49-46 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~ vs 1965-11-22 210 Floyd Patterson 196¾ 43-4-0 W TKO 12
~ time: 2:18 | referee: Harold Krause 53-46 | judge: Harold Buck 54-45 | judge: Bill Stremmell 53-43 ~
World Heavyweight Title

- A flea could've beaten brokeback Floyd that night. Not more than a big yawn for Pink

2. 1987-03-07 219 James Smith 233 19-5-0 W UD 12 vs
~ referee: Mills Lane | judge: Lou Tabat 120-106 | judge: Dalby Shirley 119-107 | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 119-107 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~ vs 1965-05-25 206 Sonny Liston 215¼ 35-2-0 W KO 1
~ time: 2:12 | referee: Jersey Joe Walcott | judge: Coley Wallace | judge: Russ Leonard | judge: Joe Colvin ~
World Heavyweight Title

- In theory at very least a mid 30s six round HOFer like Sonny could coast to a close win, but if told he could do the anchor punch flop on command and Bonecrush with the big KO of iron jawed Spoon.

1. 1986-11-22 221¼ Trevor Berbick 218½ 31-4-1 TKO 2 vs 1964-02-25 210½ Sonny Liston 218 35-1-0 W RTD 7

- Berb the lessor fighter but prime. Figure he has a puncher's chance, but I favor Sonny with a mid round stoppage, but again, Sonny does what he's told including quitting.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Biggs a bigger stronger Olympic superheavy gold medalist Ali clone.

Delusional or what?

everyone of these staements are nonsense starting with the dead guy your talking about....cleveland williams did some damage to some other fighters after all the hubub about the bullet maybe it was delayed lead poisoning that finally got to him in the ali match

strange stuff this guy is spoutin

anyway the tyson bias is what it is i guess, no one harder to reason with than a tyson fanatic

ive run into them its best to just start talkin nascar or basketball and leave the subject of boxing cause it always go back to Tyson was the best

Tuff Customer wrote:wow total clown act kinda funny i guess or is this guy on the level? cant quite tell

If he's only pretending to be a pudendum, he's doing a great job.

Tuff Customer wrote:its best to just start talkin nascar or basketball and leave the subject of boxing cause it always go back to Tyson was the best

Just don't mention baseball as the clown thinks he knows everything about that too.

Collins2000 wrote:

Tuff Customer wrote:its best to just start talkin nascar or basketball and leave the subject of boxing cause it always go back to Tyson was the best

Just don't mention baseball as the clown thinks he knows everything about that too.

- -Tuffy is it now, eh? How rich!

Did you know they sell big soft puppies such as your self on the Chinese open market, either prepackaged or fresh and live to take home for a nice fresh dinner. Triple AAA squeals are the highest grade.

Collie's worth a King's ransom in China, a rich feller you are, but never destined to count your good fortune!

Why would I bother with multiple accounts?

I haven't needed them to run rings around smarter twats than you.

Get used to it, clown. NO ONE in here respects you.

Apart from Elmo of course. But he always likes to have another hater around.

I tried to be somewhat patient with BRR in that thread... at first, anyway... and tried to be sufficiently tolerant so as to not cause a sort of clash... glad to see how well that worked.
Its fair enough to match their opponents on the basis of a chronological order, that is a logical way of doing it, but its not necessarily indicative of what list of opponents is better... you could mix and match the two lists in various ways that would make either Tyson or Ali's list look better... at the end of the day I stand by my comment about their lists of opponents in their first title reigns being about average in the wider context of Heavyweight history... their opponent selection was about as good as Louis or Holmes', better than Patterson's or Spinks', though not as good as Ali's second reign. BRR's arrangement fails to take into account that Liston is probably worth four of Tyson's title challengers. And while its fair enough to say that Patterson was injured on that night... Patterson would have never beaten Ali. It also fails to take into account that London and Cooper were forced on Ali because he was being boycotted in the US... Chuvalo and Mildenberger were as well, though they proved to be among Ali's most deserving title challengers. The last thing BRR's list fails to take into account, perhaps by design, is what I mentioned in that initial post... Ali did not lose his title in the ring, while Iron Mike was knocked around like a rag doll by Mr. Douglas. So that also plays into how their title reigns will be judged.
I think its being generous to Tyson to say that his title reign was even with Ali's 60s title reign, to say that it was better is baseless. And the major difference of course is that Ali went on to beat some great contenders on his way to beating Foreman (who was better than Tyson) and having a whole other impressive title reign, while Iron Mike only had a couple of paper belts and Evander Holyfield to look forward to.... I won't even mention what happened after that.

How do others see the results playing out ??
Be honest.

I do not have a problem with the results that BRR
posted.

It is not an Ali vs Tyson thread as such it is in some
ways a look at respective title challenges.

I personally think Ali fought basically every one there
was to fight in his era. You can not argue with the
mans willingness in the 60s and 70s to take on young
and old the best around.

Tyson in his second stage never did this, and there will
always be that blemish on his record.

But again how do people here see the match ups ?

I Feel Fine wrote:I tried to be somewhat patient with BRR in that thread... at first, anyway... and tried to be sufficiently tolerant so as to not cause a sort of clash... glad to see how well that worked.
Its fair enough to match their opponents on the basis of a chronological order, that is a logical way of doing it, but its not necessarily indicative of what list of opponents is better... you could mix and match the two lists in various ways that would make either Tyson or Ali's list look better... at the end of the day I stand by my comment about their lists of opponents in their first title reigns being about average in the wider context of Heavyweight history... their opponent selection was about as good as Louis or Holmes', better than Patterson's or Spinks', though not as good as Ali's second reign. BRR's arrangement fails to take into account that Liston is probably worth four of Tyson's title challengers. And while its fair enough to say that Patterson was injured on that night... Patterson would have never beaten Ali. It also fails to take into account that London and Cooper were forced on Ali because he was being boycotted in the US... Chuvalo and Mildenberger were as well, though they proved to be among Ali's most deserving title challengers. The last thing BRR's list fails to take into account, perhaps by design, is what I mentioned in that initial post...

- You are typical of the bandwagon fan who can only see what his blinkers allow him to see.

Tyson and Ali as youthful, very active champs with long interruptions and upheavals in their careers beg for a natural comparison. It would seem obvious that head to head chronological order takes any bias out of the equation.

Tyson was taking on much bigger, stronger prime comp than was Ali through their first title reigns. Liston and Patterson are nice legacy names, but highly compromised when he fought them. Liston never beat a ranked fighter after two eventful rounds with Patterson. Even Big George was heavily compromised in Ali's best win. Best unfettered prime heavies Ali met, Frazier and Norton both whipped him first time around and Norton twice more, that comp came in Ali's comeback, not the point of comparison since Ali was a better fighter fighting for legacy than Tyson was during his comeback..

More over, at an age when Ali was getting manhandled by little Doug Jones and knocked stupid by little Henry Cooper, Tyson had already secured his HOF legacy, minting more money than did Ali make for the whole of his career.

Not accounting how that plays out in a very young, severely mentally handicapped fighter's career that sees him spend as much time getting his scripts renewed or behind bars as he spends in the latter 15 yrs of his career defines the blinkered generation of modern fans who only see one colour of any rainbow. Tyson spent the latter 15 yrs as a part time celebrity boxer clearly. He had no backup support from any family like Ali or other champs, no back up support by an honest trainer and manager. He simply was not in the mix as a serious contender or threat although King arranged some setups for a bauble after he got out of prison.

I doubt there's been a single successful champion who had to train and fight on Prozac and other like minded sedatives just to keep his noggin screwed on. It's amazing that he got as far as he did with his background and a testament to the genius of the best HOF team in history of D'amato, Jacobs, and Cayton who recognized talent and ring genius and provided the infrastructure and support to make it all happen.

DOn't even bother responding to these retarded threads. BRR is truly a sad individual who gets his jingles from trying to bother people on boxing forums.

Collins...a tuff customer? No way, he's more like a double dealer.

BRR...these two unique contributors are not one and the same........stop with the innuendos and rumor mongering.


And as for these comparisons, I laughed, I cried, I swam in a wave of emotions....and I offer my hardiest chuckles at the satirical web you have woven! This is pugilistic Fiction at it's most creative and entertaining!

Who's your agent?

Saying that Ali's opponents were compromised in the context of a discussion of Mike Tyson opponents is highly risible, as is the notion that Doug Jones manhandled young Clay. Sonny Liston was by far the best Heavyweight in the world when Ali beat him, and even you admit that Patterson's best performances were ahead of him. Actually, I wouldn't even argue that a 21 year old Tyson beats a 21 year old Ali. Some fighters peak at different ages. Lewis didn't peak until his 30s.

I Feel Fine wrote:Saying that Ali's opponents were compromised in the context of a discussion of Mike Tyson opponents is highly risible,

Indeed a nearly perfect risibility factor in our opinion, in this case one can laugh for miles and miles in all directions.

Robinson wrote:How do others see the results playing out ??
Be honest.

I do not have a problem with the results that BRR
posted.

- Average Ali fan is unable to place anything in context because they've grown comfortable with his long established legacy.

When anyone challenges them, they'll say they "think" Ali is the greatest sans any analysis. If Ali was 1/10th as good as they claim, he should easily be able to withstand my breakdowns of his career in context to other champs with nary a yelp from them.

They seem more than a bit insecure and mystified as to how to find their way back to that comfortable warm and fuzzy spot where Ali rules supreme over their universe.

Is that why Buster Douglas seems to escape your notice?

I Feel Fine wrote:Is that why Buster Douglas seems to escape your notice?

- Buster, Mr. Field, Lewis, Williams, and McBride would knock Leon out in the prefight staredown.

Surely you can come up with something, anything, a hangnail, a shaving cut, disordered bowels, something more relevant than the endlessly beaten to death and back again Douglas fight.

Not to toot my own horn, but I thought I gave you a pretty reasonable response to this thread... which you ignored. Douglas is very relevant when comparing their first title reigns. We're not talking about an old Tyson here, bringing up Leon is a red herring.

A guy whose fantasies stretch to claiming Jack Dempsey fought Jack Johnson is hardly gonna let a fact like Buster Douglas smashing the fekk out of unbeaten peak Tyson spoil his delusions.

Tyson's defining moment.

Peak Tyson in action.

Peak Tyson showing how he'd have beaten Ali with ease.

I Feel Fine wrote:Not to toot my own horn, but I thought I gave you a pretty reasonable response to this thread... which you ignored. Douglas is very relevant when comparing their first title reigns. We're not talking about an old Tyson here, bringing up Leon is a red herring.

- Don't care how many times ye toote ye olde pooter, Douglas is as relevant as Ali's matches against Buster Mathis or Jimmy Young.

Already you've either forgotten or failed to understand:

Post subject: Re: Tyson age 20-23 vs Ali age 22-25 title comp head to head
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:33 am
Online

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:55 am
Posts: 1508
.......More over, at an age when Ali was getting manhandled by little Doug Jones and knocked stupid by little Henry Cooper, Tyson had already secured his HOF legacy, minting more money than did Ali make for the whole of his career.

Not accounting how that plays out in a very young, severely mentally handicapped fighter's career that sees him spend as much time getting his scripts renewed or behind bars as he spends in the latter 15 yrs of his career defines the blinkered generation of modern fans who only see one colour of any rainbow. Tyson spent the latter 15 yrs as a part time celebrity boxer clearly. He had no backup support from any family like Ali or other champs, no back up support by an honest trainer and manager. He simply was not in the mix as a serious contender or threat although King arranged some setups for a bauble after he got out of prison.

Ali runs out of consecutive title fights after 10 and Tyson ran out of surviving HOF team members who'd scooped him out of jail, educated him, taught him how to box, how to live, secured his retirement, and mentored as a parent would.

After a 3 yr ring absence, Ali returns as a full time fighter to much better acclaim and career earnings than he ever received in his first title reign, whereas Tyson comes back as a mentally damaged heavily medicated part time 4 round fighter out of the 90-00 mix for most of the rest of his career.

The obvious point of comparison is the very young, unfettered, undefeated talents of two of of the most naturally gifted heavies in history, as self evident as much as all men being created equal. Unfortunately some need their noses rubbed in it to discern reality that Thomas Jefferson had to spell it out for the British as I do for you.......... 8)

If you can't understand intuitively without it being spelled out that Ali has the superior 2nd half to his career that vaults him over Tyson in all time rankings, what good are ya to anyone? In Tyson's case, it never mattered to the bottom line of minting money as he continued to rake it in hand over fist fighting a motley crew of fringe contenders and ne'r do wells.

Finally, if you cannot innately smell the embarrassment of the storied legendary unified undisputed champ of the world dropping his title to Leon as the single most ignoble moment in heavy title history, need to schedule schnozz replacement surgery my friend.

Collins dont make me go Granberry on you ;)







Hehehe :")

A nice video that can help dis spell the myth of the Douglas
long count...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHcbFUTIslI