BoxRec

Whereas all old reference books and articles (Thomas Andrews etc.) indicated Joe Walcott’s birth date as April 7th, 1872, modern sources say that he was born in 1873. Fleischer’s 1973 Encyclopedia gives his birth date as April 7th, 1872 in the short biographical note, but above the actual record the date is March 13th, 1873. According to the 1900 Census, Walcott was born in April 1872:



His gravestone says 1872 – it was erected in 1955 and back then Fleischer’s Encyclopedia indicated 1872 as his birth year above the record as well.



Why is March 13th, 1873 now universally recognized as Walcott’s birth date?

Apparently many boxers are not given their proper respect when it comes the final bell....


Far out in the wilds of Oregon,
On a lonely mountainside,
Where Columbia’s mighty waters
Roll down to the ocean side;
Where the giant fir and cedar
Are imaged in the wave,
O’ergrown with firs and lichens,
I found Jack Dempsey’s grave.

O Fame, why sleeps thy favored son
In wilds, in woods, in weeds,
And shall he ever thus sleep on,
Interred his valiant deeds.
‘Tis strange New York should thus forget
Its “bravest of the brave”
And in the fields of Oregon,
Unmarked leave Dempsey’s grave.

Unmarked? no . . .



And its not in "wilds, in woods, in weeds," either. It's in Mount Calvary Cemetery, Portland, Oregon.

But it's a great poem.

El Intocable wrote:Whereas all old reference books and articles (Thomas Andrews etc.) indicated Joe Walcott’s birth date as April 7th, 1872, modern sources say that he was born in 1873. Fleischer’s 1973 Encyclopedia gives his birth date as April 7th, 1872 in the short biographical note, but above the actual record the date is March 13th, 1873. According to the 1900 Census, Walcott was born in April 1872:



His gravestone says 1872 – it was erected in 1955 and back then Fleischer’s Encyclopedia indicated 1872 as his birth year above the record as well.



Why is March 13th, 1873 now universally recognized as Walcott’s birth date?

Tom . . . It was my goal to put Walcott up for posthumous induction in to the World Boxing Hall of Fame, along with a a group of forgotten pioneers, in 2010.
As chairman of the WBHOF Selection Commitee this past year, I was disappointed that nobody involved with the WBHOF has any historical knowledge of the sport.
Anything beyond high profile names such as Dempsey & Louis are lost.
As the official historian for the Hall, I hoped to make a difference by making the WBHOF historically correct.
However, they are not interested in history, just "fund raisers".
I forced in the name George Dixon this year, a great fighter and first black world champ. Nobody knew who he was or cared.
The comment from one member was, "Well according to your stats, he died over 100 years ago, so what's the hurry?
I asked the person who they thought was more deserving and he answered, "Terry Norris."
I knew then that I was in the wrong place, and I have resigned from the disfuntional group.


-Rick Farris

George Dixon's grave (Mount Hope Cemetery - Mattapan, MA):





George Dixon

A noble warrior . . . a courageous heart.

Imagine the bravery it took to journey into the Deep deep South that was New Orleans and fight Jack Skelly for the world's title in 1892!

Ray, is it possible that at some point in the past Dempsey's grave could have fit the descriptor in the poem? Or has it always been kept up? Is that it's original location? I imagine it is....a bit ghoulish to move such things...though on occasion it does happen as I understand it.

Thank you very much all for your fantastic posts! The question still remains, however; why do modern reference books and BoxRec list March 13th, 1873 as Walcott's birth date?

Funnily enough, his biographical note here mentions 1872:

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Joe_Walcott

Does anyone know how Walcott got a year younger long after his death?

BoxBuzz wrote:Ray, is it possible that at some point in the past Dempsey's grave could have fit the descriptor in the poem? Or has it always been kept up? Is that it's original location? I imagine it is....a bit ghoulish to move such things...though on occasion it does happen as I understand it.

As far as I know, he's always been buried in the cemetery. He is buried in his wife's family plot, and I read that his father-in-law refused to allow John L. Sullivan to raise funds for a memorial to Dempsey. (Apparently his father-in-law didn't like the way Dempsey had treated his daughter.) I know this was right around the time of the Jeffries-Johnson fight (circa 1909-1910) because I came across the article while researching Jeffries-Johnson. Sadly, I didn't save the article. The tombstone must be more recent than that.

Here is a full version of the poem you quoted:

Far out in the wilds of Oregon
On a lonely mountain side
Where Columbia’s mighty waters
Fell down to the ocean’s tide,
Where the giant fir and cedar
Are imaged in the wave
O’ergrown with weeds and lichens,
I found Jack Dempsey’s grave

I found no marble monolith
No broken shaft or stone
To tell of the great triumphs
This vanished hero won;
No rose, no shamrock I could find,
No mortals here to tell,
How sleeps in this forsaken spot
The immortal Nonpareil

A wind rock-strewn canyon road,
That mortals seldom tread,
Leads up this lonely mountain
To the bivouac of the dead.
And the western sun was sinking
In the Pacific’s golden waves
And solemn pines kept watching
O’er poor Jack Dempsey’s grave

Forgotten by ten thousand throats
That thundered his acclaim;
Forgotten by his friends and foes
Who cheered his very name
Oblivion wraps his faded form
But ages hence shall save
The memory of that Irish lad
That sleeps in Dempsey’s grave

Oh! Fame, why sleeps thy favoured son
In wilds, woods and weeds?
And shall he ever thus sleep on
Interred his valiant deeds?
‘Tis strange New York should thus forget
Its “Bravest of the Brave”
And in the wilds of Oregon
Unmarked, leave Dempsey’s grave

El Intocable wrote:Thank you very much all for your fantastic posts! The question still remains, however; why do modern reference books and BoxRec list March 13th, 1873 as Walcott's birth date?

Funnily enough, his biographical note here mentions 1872:

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Joe_Walcott

Does anyone know how Walcott got a year younger long after his death?

At the time Walcott was born, the record keeping of birth records was hit-and-miss, so there is probably no contemporaneous record one can check. Walcott, for reasons known only to him, may have given different dates. (Bob Fitzsimmons certainly did. Same thing with Sonny Liston and Archie Moore in more recent times.) Walcott may have given a 1873 date, somebody remembered it, and it caught on. The census record you reproduced seems pretty conclusive to me.

raylawpc wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Ray, is it possible that at some point in the past Dempsey's grave could have fit the descriptor in the poem? Or has it always been kept up? Is that it's original location? I imagine it is....a bit ghoulish to move such things...though on occasion it does happen as I understand it.

As far as I know, he's always been buried in the cemetery. He is buried in his wife's family plot, and I read that his father-in-law refused to allow John L. Sullivan to raise funds for a memorial to Dempsey. (Apparently his father-in-law didn't like the way Dempsey had treated his daughter.) I know this was right around the time of the Jeffries-Johnson fight (circa 1909-1910) because I came across the article while researching Jeffries-Johnson. Sadly, I didn't save the article. The tombstone must be more recent than that.

According to the March 13, 1909 Tacoma Daily Times (Tacoma, WA, USA), M. J. Brady, Dempsey's father-in-law, refused to permit former World Champion John L. Sullivan and John S. Barnes to raise funds to erect a monument over Dempsey's grave. The family believed that the four-foot marble shaft was a sufficient memorial. The matter was thus dropped. (From the BoxRec wiki page on Dempsey, and the quote I had inserted there based upon my newspaper research.)

raylawpc wrote: Imagine the bravery it took to journey into the Deep deep South that was New Orleans and fight Jack Skelly for the world's title in 1892!

- Would've been treated like a KING by the train porters on the way down and welcomed as a KING by many if not most in New Orleans.

I suspect Skelly as a Brooklyn yankee would've had the most problems if any. They didn't go all that way for nothing. New Orleans was multicultural and cosmopolitan before the US was the US of A.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Imagine the bravery it took to journey into the Deep deep South that was New Orleans and fight Jack Skelly for the world's title in 1892!

- Would've been treated like a KING by the train porters on the way down and welcomed as a KING by many if not most in New Orleans.

I suspect Skelly as a Brooklyn yankee would've had the most problems if any. They didn't go all that way for nothing. New Orleans was multicultural and cosmopolitan before the US was the US of A.

You honestly think a white man fighting in the Antebellum South would have had more "problems" than the African-American he was fighting?

Treated him like a king? The Olympic Club, which promoted the bout, banned mixed-race bouts as a result of the fight. At least one account that I've read said the result nearly ended in a riot.

raylawpc wrote: You honestly think a white man fighting in the Antebellum South would have had more "problems" than the African-American he was fighting?

Treated him like a king? The Olympic Club, which promoted the bout, banned mixed-race bouts as a result of the fight. At least one account that I've read said the result nearly ended in a riot.

- New Orleans was never the antebellum south any more than Tehran is fundamentalist Islam or Hong Kong is communist China. When does the "banning" of mixed race bouts have anything to do with the personal treatment Dixon received during his travels? Just how well was he treated in Boston, eh?

If the conditions were as dire as you make up, why would a carpetbagging yankee and freed black man make such a long journey for such a fight? A pair of masochists? Did New Orleans also ban mixed raced musicians from playing together? Guess Jazz was developed elsewhere and sneaked into NO on the sly, eh?

Joe Gans also defended in Hot Springs, Arkansas and Baltimore Maryland, the antebellum south now, eh? They used to auction slaves on the steps of the US capital, or have you forgotten?

A riot at a boxing match? Please do perish the thought sire. Why boxing fans are not such common rabble as to disturb nary a single hair upon the noble head of John Law or ruffle the blouse of sainted Mother Mary. No nobler or finer upright citizens have ever existed in the history of mankind, so be still thy dark thoughts of skulduggery.

And, yes, please do expand on any results before, during and after the bout.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: You honestly think a white man fighting in the Antebellum South would have had more "problems" than the African-American he was fighting?

Treated him like a king? The Olympic Club, which promoted the bout, banned mixed-race bouts as a result of the fight. At least one account that I've read said the result nearly ended in a riot.

- New Orleans was never the antebellum south any more than Tehran is fundamentalist Islam or Hong Kong is communist China. When does the "banning" of mixed race bouts have anything to do with the personal treatment Dixon received during his travels? Just how well was he treated in Boston, eh?

If the conditions were as dire as you make up, why would a carpetbagging yankee and freed black man make such a long journey for such a fight? A pair of masochists? Did New Orleans also ban mixed raced musicians from playing together? Guess Jazz was developed elsewhere and sneaked into NO on the sly, eh?

Joe Gans also defended in Hot Springs, Arkansas and Baltimore Maryland, the antebellum south now, eh? They used to auction slaves on the steps of the US capital, or have you forgotten?

A riot at a boxing match? Please do perish the thought sire. Why boxing fans are not such common rabble as to disturb nary a single hair upon the noble head of John Law or ruffle the blouse of sainted Mother Mary. No nobler or finer upright citizens have ever existed in the history of mankind, so be still thy dark thoughts of skulduggery.

And, yes, please do expand on any results before, during and after the bout.

You are one of those sad individuals who probably believes the Holocaust never occurred, and that the Apollo moon landing was staged by NASA in a Houston TV studio. And now you've added one more to the list: Racism didn't exist in Post-Reconstruction New Orleans.

I have decided it makes no sense to argue with folks like you, so I will not waste the effort. And as far as expanding on any boxing result for your benefit, I will follow the Biblical injunction against casting pearls before swine. (Matthew 7:6)

I suspect some of us are very well traveled...others not so much.

BRR as to your statement I suppose there were "pockets" of this New Orleans independence from the more insidious southern culture. Writers, artists, easy going folks who huddled together and established some neighborhoods or groups that got together for a real celebration of diversity were an advertised reality of this area. Back in that day it might have been described as a great contingency of folks who's hearts were joyful.....and they are the stories of romantic legend because genuine examples of such wonderful gatherings of humanity truly existed within the real tumult. New Orleans is a bit of a stand out.

But the problem with this imagined romantic construct is that it seldom takes into account a certain pernicious reality. That a huge example of very ill intended folks were always given room at the table in ways that always had another portion of the populace more than just on guard.

Unique thing about the south, some of the best examples of human beings of diverse backgrounds getting along and finding a way to truly enjoy each other's company existed and still exist. The same is true for the opposite scenario. But for far too long the less attractive side of this equation had the distinct upper hand.

BRR is just deluded, Buzz.

We can add US history to the ever-growing list of subjects on which he has made a fool of himself.

Tell us all about how Walcott fought, buzz.

LOL

Are you a little confused between Walcott and middleweight champ Dempsey?

One fighter is as good as another when you are a boxing expert like buzz.

raylawpc wrote:
You are one of those sad individuals who probably believes the Holocaust never occurred, and that the Apollo moon landing was staged by NASA in a Houston TV studio. And now you've added one more to the list: Racism didn't exist in Post-Reconstruction New Orleans.

- Stuff a rag in it Jacko. Don't recall asking for or receiving assistance from your candied ass when taking on the whole lot of your Islamic terrorist buddies wanting to drive Israel into the sea: http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 47&start=0

Harry Wills was born in NO and defended his coloured title there against McVea, Langford, Clark, and many others. He didn't drag them down to get lynched. Jack Johnson traveled extensively through the south with little incident other than paying off speeding tickets and laughing off a few insults.

New Orleans was the Paris of the US and Dixon would've been treated as a king regardless of any isolated incidents. You fail to understand how the rail system operated with black porters being one of the highest paid service postions in the country with exclusive control over the service and hospitality operations. Dixon would've traveled in a segregated car, treated like a king and protected from any rough patches that may have existed during his travels.

You haven't even wiped out racism in your generation, so really, what good are you other than a laugh at your hormones going whacko?

These early black contenders and champs were extensive world travelers and a lot more savvy than to hang around on the street corner munching moon pies while waiting for the klan to ride by for a drag thru.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote:
You are one of those sad individuals who probably believes the Holocaust never occurred, and that the Apollo moon landing was staged by NASA in a Houston TV studio. And now you've added one more to the list: Racism didn't exist in Post-Reconstruction New Orleans.

- Stuff a rag in it Jacko. Don't recall asking for or receiving assistance from your candied ass when taking on the whole lot of your Islamic terrorist buddies wanting to drive Israel into the sea: http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 47&start=0

Harry Wills was born in NO and defended his coloured title there against McVea, Langford, Clark, and many others. He didn't drag them down to get lynched. Jack Johnson traveled extensively through the south with little incident other than paying off speeding tickets and laughing off a few insults.

New Orleans was the Paris of the US and Dixon would've been treated as a king regardless of any isolated incidents. You fail to understand how the rail system operated with black porters being one of the highest paid service postions in the country with exclusive control over the service and hospitality operations. Dixon would've traveled in a segregated car, treated like a king and protected from any rough patches that may have existed during his travels.

You haven't even wiped out racism in your generation, so really, what good are you other than a laugh at your hormones going whacko?

These early black contenders and champs were extensive world travelers and a lot more savvy than to hang around on the street corner munching moon pies while waiting for the klan to ride by for a drag thru.

"I have decided it makes no sense to argue with folks like you, so I will not waste the effort."

granberry wrote:Tell us all about how Walcott fought, buzz.

LOL

Are you a little confused between Walcott and middleweight champ Dempsey?

Now hold it right their Clamcherry, I don't get these fighters confused at all, Walcott's name has a completely different array of letters than Dempsey....not a single one in common! As for his style, I'm still wating for you to send me the films so I can continue to study, otherwise all I knows is what I reads from what others have jotted. I hear he was a bit of a Sherman Tank.

Now get some culture and Read the poem!....it's heartfelt and soul stirring. Not that You or I have a heart or a soul, but some say if you do happen to be be so blessed, it can give your leg a tingle.

El Intocable wrote:
Does anyone know how Walcott got a year younger long after his death?

That's nothing.

Jack Dempsey (the heavyweight) lost an inch in height years after he died when the pathetic shill Herbert Goldman got his hands on the Ring Record Book after Nat Fleischer's death.

as if that was somethin'

BoxBuzz wrote:as if that was somethin'

It gave him a chance to mention 'clueless shill' Goldman.

Goldman was running The Ring when granberry (aka Paddy Dolan) was sending in fake fight results for his protege Donald "Biff" Kline.

No wonder Paddy would rather talk about Kid Azteca (not that he has anything other than a comic book cover to share) rather than his own days mis-managing a couple of fighters in the 70's.

Collins2000 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:as if that was somethin'

It gave him a chance to mention 'clueless shill' Goldman.

Goldman was running The Ring when granberry (aka Paddy Dolan) was sending in fake fight results for his protege Donald "Biff" Kline.

No wonder Paddy would rather talk about Kid Azteca (not that he has anything other than a comic book cover to share) rather than his own days mis-managing a couple of fighters in the 70's.

Nat Loubet was still running The Ring at that time. The USA boxing tournament scandal occurred in 1977. Goldman joined the staff in 1978.

Collins2000 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:as if that was somethin'

It gave him a chance to mention 'clueless shill' Goldman.

Goldman was running The Ring when granberry (aka Paddy Dolan) was sending in fake fight results for his protege Donald "Biff" Kline.

No wonder Paddy would rather talk about Kid Azteca (not that he has anything other than a comic book cover to share) rather than his own days mis-managing a couple of fighters in the 70's.

Homosexually fixated collins, the boxrec moderators' darling,

is so incompetent that he never heard of Kid Azteca.

Poor collins is also fixated on his Paddy, whoever that is.

Is Paddy one of your many homosexual partners, collins?

Tell us all about Kid Azteca, collins.

LOL

Everyone here remembers when homosexually fixated sicko collins ran to the moderators to complain when I posted a comic book cover that featured the faces of four greats of Mexican boxing--Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova.





collins wanted the posted deleted because he thought it had nothing to do with boxing.

WHY?

Because collins never heard of Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova.

collins didn't know who they were..

And his buddy 'moderators' actually deleted the post at his direction, because they didn't know who Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova were either.