BoxRec

you are asked whether you think he has what it takes
to be an all time great. what is your answer?

I would have no doubt anticipated Ezzard Charles as to becoming
the first HW champion to regain the title when they meet.

i admit i found my own question quite disturbing.
for me rocky is absolutely ATG material. no doubt.
but in 1953 i probably would not have thought like
that, and only two years, six fights (actually two of
them) would have made me change my mind ...

so i must admit to myself that you cannot at all
compare the reigns of rocky to louis' or ali's - the
rock just called it a day in time ...

Robinson wrote:I would have no doubt anticipated Ezzard Charles as to becoming
the first HW champion to regain the title when they meet.

solid, honest answer ... what is your assessment of
rocky all in all, if i my ask?

I think he is a guy that lacked physical attributes such as
size and natural athleticism and made up for it with hard
work and a hunger to be the best. That hunger and dedication
to conditioning got him a looong way.

I think in his time, he proved how good he was and fought
the best men around. He retired and enjoyed his life
with good health.

In head to head match up's I see him doing ok against
a lot of guys before him, but struggling with some of
the bigger, faster movers. I also see more modern
regulations awarding TKO's against him should he get messed
up face wise as he did.

As far as historical context Marciano is an ATG no doubt.

In head to head match up's I don't know where I rank
him, but most likely not in my top ten.

I don't know. I suppose the answer is no, though I might have thought that he would have an edge over these older guys he was fighting. But I don't know that I would have picked him to have done it in the way that he did. What I mean is that I could have seen him KOing the older Charles, which he did in the rematch, but I don't think I would have ever picked him to win a decision over Charles, which he did. I might have picked him to KO a smaller, older Moore, but I wouldn't have suspected that he would have won so lopsidedly, I don't know that I would have realized just how great Rocky's strength advantage really was compared to Moore. And obviously I wouldn't have known that Walcott was going to come into the rematch in Rocky's first defense either not trying or not having anything left after his great showing in losing the first match. So even if you might have had high expectations for Rocky, his actual reign was still not what you might have expected.

i think i am answering my own puzzle here. i always saw
marciano somewhere in the middle of my top ten list. now
i am not so sure anymore. because if it was not what he
he did until october 1953 what made him so great, was it
really what he did after?

i mean if one makes a list of "all time greats in determination"
rocky is pretty much on top of that ... but if you compare
him as a boxer ... different story. too short reign. too weak
opposition. too few decisive fights.

Poor old Rocky is now getting shunted aside. Will it never end.

I think I might've said no. That's not what I say today.

I have never shunted the Rock aside.

I think he is easily one of the best historically
as a champion. An honest man, a hard worker,
impecable record regardless of claims that some
bouts were exhibitions.

The man trained hard, fought and won, and KOd
and beat the best he had in front of him.

He retired wisely for him and his family.

If we are talking head to head match up's
however.. I do not think he does well against some
big mover types. But I can envision him in some damned
exciting brawls with the sluggers.

You aren't gonna suggest he'd have much trouble with Wlad I hope, Kym.

To me it's much more about the size of the fight in the dog rather than the size of the dog in the fight.

Collins

I do agree. But size, and power when there is skill does make
a difference, I however will always go for the smaller dog ;)

Not the most unrealistic thing in the world to imagine Klitschko pumping what is, in all fairness, one hell of a jab & holding like hell to win a decision over Marciano, though, I have to admit --- I just think Klitschko is too unstable mentally, & too fearful of the punch he knows could come at any time against Marciano, to last all twelve or fifteen rounds. I think he'd get knocked out.

His brother's odds would be better but, then, he was always less talented than his little bro.

Collins2000 wrote:Poor old Rocky is now getting shunted aside. Will it never end.

i did not mean it that way when i started the thread.
really not. it just entered my mind that while we may
discuss today whether or not a current guy belongs
in the HOF or is an ATG, especially when they are not
yet retired, it is difficult to assess former champs,
since we know (and judge) everything from a bigger
distance. this is definitely not a rocky-diminishing
thread. at least the intention is not like that at all ...
i just love to see things in perspective and avoid
stereotypes and at the end of 1953 i would have seen
rocky as a great puncher with limited skill, who could
be someone, but maybe not ATG material. just imagine
that the reign of louis had not ended too much before
that ... which was pretty impressive for years.

btw i just see a flaw in my own argument. in 1953 you
would not have know any of the later guys. no ali, no
foreman, tyson, lewis, klitschko etc etc - so actually
entering the ATG status would have necessarily been
way easier ...

Marciano-Wlad . . .I see Klitschko dominating early via jabbing and clinching. But I think Marciano's odd stance and his shortness of height (which he amplified via the crouch) would actually be a benefit vs Klitschko, who is used to shorter men standing straight up at him providing an easy target (like Sam dinosaur-foot Peter or Chagaev). I think Marciano's almost sole concentration on the body and consistent pressure would pay off in the later rounds. I've talked with several guys who have sparred with Wlad and they have all said he does not react well to body shots.

I used to like many thought Marciano came around at the right time and would do poorly head to head vs many other champs. But after studying him and his fights/style more intently my impression of him has gotten much better. He was not nearly as slow as people make him out to be and he developed a good defense which was very hard to time. Men like Ezzard Charles were absolute master boxers and he had a hard time landing consistenly on Marciano.

another quasi-philosphical foray into the depths of interstitial time in order to .......Knock the greats ...as usual

funso banjo baby wrote:another quasi-philosphical foray into the depths of interstitial time in order to .......Knock the greats ...as usual

i agree with the "quasi-philosophical" (and thus
useless) nature of this thread. but it is really not
intended to knock marciano. i am a big fan and
i do not like the distant bashing of former champs
by means of desktop wisdom at all.

yet i asked myself this question when looking at
the records of different people, especially the
number of critical bouts at top level. rocky had
his first title bout at thirty and retired at thirty
two. most of his ATG achievement must have
happened in between. question is if you had seen
this when he became champ.

chris arreola is 27-0 at age 28. could he achieve
ATG status in two years? see, my point is that the
past is alway distorted by lot of myth ... yet once
it was the present, with no myth at all.

man wrote:

funso banjo baby wrote:another quasi-philosphical foray into the depths of interstitial time in order to .......Knock the greats ...as usual

i agree with the "quasi-philosophical" (and thus
useless) nature of this thread. but it is really not
intended to knock marciano. i am a big fan and
i do not like the distant bashing of former champs
by means of desktop wisdom at all.

yet i asked myself this question when looking at
the records of different people, especially the
number of critical bouts at top level. rocky had
his first title bout at thirty and retired at thirty
two. most of his ATG achievement must have
happened in between. question is if you had seen
this when he became champ.

chris arreola is 27-0 at age 28. could he achieve
ATG status in two years? see, my point is that the
past is alway distorted by lot of myth ... yet once
it was the present, with no myth at all.

ok, so Chris Arreola destroys, say Toney...then takes out the Champ Vitali with a peach of a right in the 11th round....takes out Vitali in the return in 1

beats Vladimir twice (one points, one stoppage)

beats David Haye (hes the don cockell )

and then retires with a blast out of Lennox Lewis

for sure we'd be bigging him up in 20 years time

funso banjo baby wrote:

man wrote:

funso banjo baby wrote:another quasi-philosphical foray into the depths of interstitial time in order to .......Knock the greats ...as usual

i agree with the "quasi-philosophical" (and thus
useless) nature of this thread. but it is really not
intended to knock marciano. i am a big fan and
i do not like the distant bashing of former champs
by means of desktop wisdom at all.

yet i asked myself this question when looking at
the records of different people, especially the
number of critical bouts at top level. rocky had
his first title bout at thirty and retired at thirtyhttp://forum.boxrec.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=4&p=1983955#
two. most of his ATG achievement must have
happened in between. question is if you had seen
this when he became champ.

chris arreola is 27-0 at age 28. could he achieve
ATG status in two years? see, my point is that the
past is alway distorted by lot of myth ... yet once
it was the present, with no myth at all.

ok, so Chris Arreola destroys, say Toney...then takes out the Champ Vitali with a peach of a right in the 11th round....takes out Vitali in the return in 1

beats Vladimir twice (one points, one stoppage)

beats David Haye (hes the don cockell )

and then retires with a blast out of Lennox Lewis

for sure we'd be bigging him up in 20 years time

not sure if you are ironic but i guess it would not take
20 years - and in fact that is exactly my take on this,
he would deserve it ... in a way. yet still it would not
feel like what ali had done.