BoxRec

For instance, I have a feeling Dwight Qawi could have beaten a number of heavyweight champs (e.g. Jess Willard).

Are there any Cruisers who could have been heavyweight champ if they were around during an early era?

Maybe if a younger Toney had fought at Heavyweight against the likes of Ruiz and Rahman with no steroids or excess weight he might have done it. I'm sure that Qawi (in shape) or Toney (in shape) might have a shot at some earlier champions, maybe against Burns or Braddock for instance. Maybe Haye? And of course we are purposely forgetting Holyfield since he actually did it.

And let's forget that Gordon outboxed Berbick before Berbick won a title, and actually made Berbick look pretty bad. I don't think it's a stretch to envision many of the lesser known CW's (like Gordon) being able to beat some of the guys who were title holders, or some of the lesser earlier champs.

zojo, wrote:For instance, I have a feeling Dwight Qawi could have beaten a number of heavyweight champs (e.g. Jess Willard).

Are there any Cruisers who could have been heavyweight champ if they were around during an early era?

- Might want to have a doc check out that bad feeling. Could be fatal since Qawi had a miserable record against heavies

Leon showed you don't even have to be a minor 190 lb intercontinental belt holder to whip what many regard as the greatest ever in Ali.

Plenty of cruisers became heavy champs: Corbett, Johnson, Hart, Dempsey, Sharkey, Schmeling, Braddock, Louis, Walcott, Charles, Rocky, Floyd, Ali, Frazier. Whether modern cruisers could beat the ancient cruisers depends on the matchup involved.

I think Qawi, Toney,peak Cooper, DeLeon, Holyfield all would have fared well in
my opinion against some former HW champs.

As BRR mentioned alot of HW champs in the past would be CWs or even
LHWs today.

To differentiate between 'cruisers' and heavyweights has always been nonsensical. Time has shown any truly small heavyweights who in top condition would weigh in the 190s put on extra lbs to move to heavyweight anyway (Holyfield, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, Toney, Ibragimov, Gomez, Boytsov, Ruiz, Chambers and the list goes on and on) Hence why despite having entertaining fights now and then the cruiserweight division has historically been a wasteland as far as talent is concerned. Carlos DeLeon beating heavyweight champions? I have serious doubts. Qawi couldn't defeat a drained listless Foreman, no way he beats Willard.

Most of the talented cruisers were simply light heavyweights who ditched having to make weight anymore (Mormeck, Qawi, Adamek etc.) And now it looks like even Adamek will be jumping the shark to fight Golota. The division has done nothing for the sport of boxing and was created to get more sanctioning fees . . . it should be put back in the garbage pin where it belongs.

dempseyfire wrote:To differentiate between 'cruisers' and heavyweights has always been nonsensical. Time has shown any truly small heavyweights who in top condition would weigh in the 190s put on extra lbs to move to heavyweight anyway (Holyfield, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, Toney, Ibragimov, Gomez, Boytsov, Ruiz, Chambers and the list goes on and on) Hence why despite having entertaining fights now and then the cruiserweight division has historically been a wasteland as far as talent is concerned. Carlos DeLeon beating heavyweight champions? I have serious doubts. Qawi couldn't defeat a drained listless Foreman, no way he beats Willard.

Most of the talented cruisers were simply light heavyweights who ditched having to make weight anymore (Mormeck, Qawi, Adamek etc.) And now it looks like even Adamek will be jumping the shark to fight Golota. The division has done nothing for the sport of boxing and was created to get more sanctioning fees . . . it should be put back in the garbage pin where it belongs.

dempseyfire wrote:Carlos DeLeon beating heavyweight champions? I have serious doubts.

In between his stoppage of and then subsequent loss to DeLeon, ST Gordon handled Berbick rather easily, so I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine DeLeon on a good night beating a few of the lesser “title holders” of the past few decades.

dempseyfire wrote:Qawi couldn't defeat a drained listless Foreman, no way he beats Willard.

Not to say that Qawi could have beaten Foreman or Williard, it is not exactly fair to judge his chances based on the bloated wreck that stepped in ring with George. As I recall, Qawi had gained an enormous amount of weight in a short period of time prior to the Foreman fight, and actually landed quite a few good shots on the glacier slow older Foremn. And as I recall, George wasn’t able to drop Qawi either.

dempseyfire wrote:Most of the talented cruisers were simply light heavyweights who ditched having to make weight anymore (Mormeck, Qawi, Adamek etc.) And now it looks like even Adamek will be jumping the shark to fight Golota. The division has done nothing for the sport of boxing and was created to get more sanctioning fees . . . it should be put back in the garbage pin where it belongs.

Agreed.

in the early days it was for bloated light heavies but its a legitimate division now people like steve cunningham, enzo macc woudnt be able to make LH and would be undersized at heavy esspecially as enzo macc walked arounf at 15 stone at the most

Adamek seems to fit the 14.4 divison well LH was probably as hard for him he only moving u for the money and the glory of a fighter moving up from LH-HW and become champion

Enzo walked around at 200 and even contemplated moving down to 175 before his career went into the toilet after losing all of his 'comeback' fights . .

Adamek was making 175 in his mid 20s . . making weight as you get older gets harder but as many disciplined men like Moore and Hopkins have shown it can be done.

Once you are 21-22 a male has basically grown into his adult body.

Cruiserweight is for blown-up light heavyweights and guys who traditionally would be very small heavyweights (i.e weighing in the 180s) Not natural in-top condition 200 lbers.

dempseyfire wrote:Enzo walked around at 200 and even contemplated moving down to 175 before his career went into the toilet after losing all of his 'comeback' fights . .

Adamek was making 175 in his mid 20s . . making weight as you get older gets harder but as many disciplined men like Moore and Hopkins have shown it can be done.

Once you are 21-22 a male has basically grown into his adult body.

Cruiserweight is for blown-up light heavyweights and guys who traditionally would be very small heavyweights (i.e weighing in the 180s) Not natural in-top condition 200 lbers.

- You've been busted by me so many times on the weight issue in boxing, it's become like my morning constitutional.

Archie turned pro as a fully formed adult welter although he was doubtless a bit underfed, but still, a full 4 modern divisions down from where he settled at for his HOF run.

Mr. Pops making middle into his 40s extraordinary, but really now, that's just dumb's dumbest's brother that would ever consider that more than a handful of fighters could maintain that one off physiological ability past their prime and still be effective fighters.

Not just Enzo contemplated what weight to fight at. That's universal in boxing for all but the largest and smallest, and many get it wrong because they misjudge what their bodies can accomplish.

Ahhhhh, nothing like a big early morn pot of coffee and a little dempster to chew on for my daily........ 8)

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Carlos DeLeon beating heavyweight champions? I have serious doubts.

In between his stoppage of and then subsequent loss to DeLeon, ST Gordon handled Berbick rather easily, so I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine DeLeon on a good night beating a few of the lesser “title holders” of the past few decades.

Don King wouldn't let DeLeon fight Holmes because he controlled both. DeLeon wanted the fight.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Enzo walked around at 200 and even contemplated moving down to 175 before his career went into the toilet after losing all of his 'comeback' fights . .

Adamek was making 175 in his mid 20s . . making weight as you get older gets harder but as many disciplined men like Moore and Hopkins have shown it can be done.

Once you are 21-22 a male has basically grown into his adult body.

Cruiserweight is for blown-up light heavyweights and guys who traditionally would be very small heavyweights (i.e weighing in the 180s) Not natural in-top condition 200 lbers.

- You've been busted by me so many times on the weight issue in boxing, it's become like my morning constitutional.

Archie turned pro as a fully formed adult welter although he was doubtless a bit underfed, but still, a full 4 modern divisions down from where he settled at for his HOF run.

Mr. Pops making middle into his 40s extraordinary, but really now, that's just dumb's dumbest's brother that would ever consider that more than a handful of fighters could maintain that one off physiological ability past their prime and still be effective fighters.

Not just Enzo contemplated what weight to fight at. That's universal in boxing for all but the largest and smallest, and many get it wrong because they misjudge what their bodies can accomplish.

Ahhhhh, nothing like a big early morn pot of coffee and a little dempster to chew on for my daily........ 8)

You haven't busted anything you joke. You have been fact busted so many times on here you should be banned for simple intellectual dishonesty and incompetence.

Moore was 147 for a year at 19-20 years old while dirt poor and quickly grew into a full fledged middleweight.

I boxed in the gym with Alonzo Ratliff a couple times. He beat Deleon.
Alonzo was a real nice fighter, but I couldnt picture him beating Larry.
I know styles make fights and all that , but nevertheless.

Expug wrote:I boxed in the gym with Alonzo Ratliff a couple times. He beat Deleon.
Alonzo was a real nice fighter, but I couldnt picture him beating Larry.
I know styles make fights and all that , but nevertheless.

I saw Alonzo fight a number of times and he was a pretty good fighter, but would have had virtually no chance against Holmes. Did someone actually say Alonzo would have troubled Holmes?

Nah, just doing boxing math Lohn L.
Just cant picture a guy losing to Alonzo being able to beat Holmes.

Expug wrote:Nah, just doing boxing math Lohn L.
Just cant picture a guy losing to Alonzo being able to beat Holmes.

Hmmm, did anyone on here say that DeLeon could have beaten Holmes? I mentioned DeLeon possibly beating one of the lesser title holders of the past few decades, and I feel pretty good about Sugar having a shot against someone like Bentt, Hide or maybe even Sam Peter or Seldon. Gordon did make Berbick look pretty bad, and Sugar was able to take ST in the rematch. And it's certainly not a stretch to say that Berbick was a much better fighter than any of the guys I just listed.

Wsbuf mentioned that King had both Deleon and Holmes thats why the fight was never considered.
My response is to that.
I dont think it would have been a competitive fight.

Expug wrote:Wsbuf mentioned that King had both Deleon and Holmes thats why the fight was never considered.
My response is to that.
I dont think it would have been a competitive fight.

Neither do I.