BoxRec

Joe vs:

Tommy Hearns
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Michael Spinks
Bob Foster
Archie Moore
Carlos Monzoon
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Chris Eubank
Nigel Benn
Jake LaMotta
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
"Bobby" Czyz
Harry Greb
Stanley Ketchell
Ezzard Charles
John Conteh
Nino Benvenuti

Who would Joe have beaten?

Not many.

Some pretty tough ATGs in that listing there mate.
Tough fights for many up or down of 168.

How do you see Calzaghe doing>

start with British greats, many whom are just as deserving as some on that list, and I agree with Collins, He wouldn't beat many. Too many more skilled and harder men!

Len Johnson
Len Harvey
Jack Casey
Jock McAvoy
Bert Gilroy
Ginger Sadd
Chic Calderwood
Cowboy Mccormack
Mick Leahy
Harry Scot
Michael Watson
and again John Conteh

Very nice thread, and I will share Collins' answer. Not many indeed. I would however like to single out Hopkins as one fighter who gives Joe a big fat L.

I can see him beating Czyz (without a doubt), Tarver, Eubank, Hearns (would have been a great, interesting battle at 168) Benn, Toney (a fast, awkward high volume style which Toney would hate) and Ketchel (under modern rules).

Hearns-Calzaghe is an interesting fight. As Stewart often says, Hearns was usually better against boxers than against punchers.... not always, I myself would emphasize, but usually.

Calzaghe at 28 wouldn't be interested in many of those fellows.

You'd be better off putting up a list headed by Doug DeWitt and Robbie Sims. They are the sort of guys Calzaghe would be lining up.

TigerMoth wrote:Who would Joe have beaten?

- Yet again you surface to take a look at yourself reeling in your own bait you've swallowed. CLASSIC!

Oh, by the way, Joe C's second great achievement, beating Kessler - well, Kessler is currently ranked #4 Super Middleweight by BoxRec. Surely beating Kessler shows Joe C is a future HOF.

Oh, did you not properly source boxrec to know Joe is currently ranked #1 supermiddle of all time? None of your listed fighters makes it close to his grade, his class being above everyone else, meaning of course Joe remains undefeated, going to something like a 100-0, leaving you flogging that log you've been toting around.

And so, putting your verbose BS aside, among those listed, who would dear, slapping Joe have a victory?

[quote="Robinson"]Some pretty tough ATGs in that listing there mate.
Tough fights for many up or down of 168.

How do you see Calzaghe doing>[/quote]

To be entirely honest, (having just watched Joe vs Kessler on youtube and having seen Joe vs a coming back from retirement Chris Eubank), here is how I see Joe:

He seems to have a very good chin, although I think Tommy Hearns would destroy him, he has very fast hands, but nothing to bother a SRL who could stand up to Tommy Hearns, he is a clever, dirty boxer (no big criticism with regards to dirty - many, if not all great fighters bent the rules).

But, all in all, very unimpressive. Had he fought in a real division, middle or lightheavy, he would be at best a top ten fighter (not all-time, top ten at the time he was fighting). Really, has anyone ever cared about the made up Super Middleweight Division?

dempsyfire said: "I can see him beating Czyz (without a doubt), Tarver, Eubank, Hearns (would have been a great, interesting battle at 168) Benn, Toney (a fast, awkward high volume style which Toney would hate) and Ketchel (under modern rules)."

Having become interested in British boxing in the last year and having watched many fights on youtube, firstly, Nigel Benn, the Dark Destroyer, would have walked through Joe's pitty pat punches and kicked his ass. James Toney, once 44 - 0 as a middleweight and due to his boxing skills successful as a heavyweight would have destroyed Joe. Hearns, give me a break, no contest. Tommy was would have kept him at the end of his powerful jab before landing a devastating right hand and destroying Joe.

Also, to be entirely honest, I couldn't make informed comments about Czyz and Ketchel.

All in all, due to his hand speed, chin, stamina, "ring generalship", I consider Joe to be a very good fighter. But, is he a HOF fighter, a great fighter - no way!

By the way, if anyone really wants to appreciate how great RJJ was, check out youtube with RJJ vs James Toney 44 - 0. While he is overweight and doesn't train properly, can anyone claim James Toney has not been a great fighter. And, look what a prime RJJ does to him.

A prime RJJ would have made Joe C look like an club fighter!!

Tommy Hearns - Hearns by TKO, i say this because as and old man, he somehow became CW champ.
Bernard Hopkins - Hopkins by UD
Roy Jones Jr - RJJ by UD, possible late stoppage
James Toney - Toney by UD
Antonio Tarver - Close UD. I reckon Tarver would win 2 of a trilogy
Michael Spinks - Spinks UD
Bob Foster - Foster KO
Archie Moore - Moore KO
Carlos Monzoon - Monzon UD
Sugar Ray Robinson - SRR UD
Sugar Ray Leonard - at 168, i think will be a step to far for SRL. Joe by UD
Chris Eubank - Eubank UD, but again like Tarver, see Eubank winning 2 of a trilogy
Nigel Benn - Benn KO
Jake LaMotta - LaMotta KO
Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Qawi stoppage
"Bobby" Czyz - Joe UD
Harry Greb - Greb UD
Stanley Ketchell - Dont know about this guy, possible close decision between either of them
Ezzard Charles - Charles KO
John Conteh - Joe UD
Nino Benvenuti - Joe UD

That my opinion anyway...

TigerMoth wrote:By the way, if anyone really wants to appreciate how great RJJ was, check out youtube with RJJ vs James Toney 44 - 0. While he is overweight and doesn't train properly, can anyone claim James Toney has not been a great fighter. And, look what a prime RJJ does to him.

A prime RJJ would have made Joe C look like an club fighter!!

- By the way, if anyone really wants to appreciate how great a competition you've become for Mr. Observer's BOTY belt, (Bozo of the Year), Joe had been fighting exactly one year when the above fight took place and sported a perfect 7-0 record.

True, Roy would've handled the young Joe then, but Joe could've easily flitted about the ring and slapped the fatty off of Mr. TwoTons like Mr. Tiberi ended up doing to such great comical acclaim.

TigerMoth wrote:Joe vs:

Tommy Hearns
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Michael Spinks
Bob Foster
Archie Moore
Carlos Monzoon
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Chris Eubank
Nigel Benn
Jake LaMotta
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
"Bobby" Czyz
Harry Greb
Stanley Ketchell
Ezzard Charles
John Conteh
Nino Benvenuti

Who would Joe have beaten?

why isnt collins on the list?

calzaghe would have beaten them all. if hopkins thought he could have beaten calzaghe why didnt try fighting him when they got in the ring together instead of spending the fight spoiling.

People are talking about toney, hopkins and rjj being greats! collins, benn, eubank or calzaghe would have been big fights for all of them at the now super middle weight. Note these so called greats dodged them all or lost to calzaghe.

Who has Bernard Hopkins actually beat? Tarver! thats about it and i wouldnt consider him anything better than a frank bruno type level of champion.

All these american fighters ever did was make reputations off each other, rematch after rematch, they never wanted to risk loosing their belts, reputations and big purse fights to british fighters and avoided them like the plague.

Hopkins lost to a second rater like taylor. Taylor a man knocked out by carl froch (the poor mans calzaghe lol), froch a fighter who is in all reality only just in the top 6 super middle weights if that.

Hopkins is a great fighter because of an accumulation of wins, no one win defines him. To say that he, who was seven years older than Joe and lost by a close SD, doesn't deserve mention for what he might do vs. Joe at 28... well, it takes a Calzaghe fan to think so.
Hopkins clearly weight drained versus Taylor, not to mention that those were controversial decisions. To point to those fights as some indication of Hopkins' lack of greatness shows a lack of perspective.
It is hypocritical to point fingers one way and not the other when it comes to some great Americans and Brits not meeting. Toney's willingness to fight the best should not be in question, he fought McCallum twice when those others never did. Jones fought Toney when Toney was considered a contender for the title of pound for pound king. They both fought at Heavyweight. Jones was frustrating in not fighting more top fighters, be they American or British, but to suggest that this is representative of all American fighters is clear nonsense. And Hopkins has been fighting nothing but top ten pound for pound fighters in his last several fights.
Making sweeping statements about "these American fighters" is such bullshit. Get serious.

I Feel Fine wrote:Hopkins is a great fighter because of an accumulation of wins, no one win defines him. To say that he, who was seven years older than Joe and lost by a close SD, doesn't deserve mention for what he might do vs. Joe at 28... well, it takes a Calzaghe fan to think so.
Hopkins clearly weight drained versus Taylor, not to mention that those were controversial decisions. To point to those fights as some indication of Hopkins' lack of greatness shows a lack of perspective.
It is hypocritical to point fingers one way and not the other when it comes to some great Americans and Brits not meeting. Toney's willingness to fight the best should not be in question, he fought McCallum twice when those others never did. Jones fought Toney when Toney was considered a contender for the title of pound for pound king. They both fought at Heavyweight. Hopkins has been fighting nothing but top ten pound for pound fighters in his last several fights.
Making sweeping statements about "these American fighters" is such bullshit. Get serious.

Valuev fights top ten fighters, i wouldnt consider him a real champion? however if he were american im sure he would be getting compared to lennox lewis right now. Rjj faught hand picked opponents, Calzaghe stepped up a weight at the age of 37 to fight a 43 year old Hopkins in his own back yard at light heavy weight, and beat a fighter who came to spoil and avoid an out and out fight, a fighter who then went on to school pavlik, a fighter that the majority of americans also believed could beat calzaghe.

"Jones faught toney" whoopdee doo apart from mcallum who had toney ever beaten? Another overhyped fighter, having said that at least he didnt dodge any fighters.

Was anyone not born in the British isles not over hyped? At least Jones didn't spend most of his career milking the WBO. He did in fact fight a top British fighter in Woods and kicked his ass all over the ring. Who else did Toney fight? Michael Nunn, who creamed the best European Middleweight at the time in one round. Years later Toney moved up to Cruiserweight and won that title at advanced age against another European, before fighting at Heavyweight.
Calzaghe was 36 and with his seven year age advantage versus Hopkins he was able to win the razor thin fight. Hopkins at Calzaghe's age was having his best year, and would have beaten Joe rather handedly. And for your information I never thought Pavlik would have a chance at Calzaghe.
I'm very sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder about American fighters, but some of us aren't too thrilled with over hyped Brits like Haye either. Calzaghe beat the two best Americans of his day when they were much older and had been slowing down, fine, but I'm not going to hear about how Calzaghe is now the second coming of Christ... he was the youngest of the bunch and so he won the fights, Jones in particular had been shot for five years, it was not because Hopkins and Jones were "over hyped."

I Feel Fine wrote:Was anyone not born in the British isles not over hyped? At least Jones didn't spend most of his career milking the WBO. He did in fact fight a top British fighter in Woods and kicked his ass all over the ring. Who else did Toney fight? Michael Nunn, who creamed the best European Middleweight at the time in one round. Years later Toney moved up to Cruiserweight and won that title at advanced age against another European, before fighting at Heavyweight.
Calzaghe was 36 and with his seven year age advantage versus Hopkins he was able to win the razor thin fight. Hopkins at Calzaghe's age was having his best year, and would have beaten Joe rather handedly. And for your information I never thought Pavlik would have a chance at Calzaghe.
I'm very sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder about American fighters, but some of us aren't too thrilled with over hyped Brits like Haye either. Calzaghe beat the two best Americans of his day when they were much older and had been slowing down, fine, but I'm not going to hear about how Calzaghe is now the second coming of Christ... he was the youngest of the bunch and so he won the fights, Jones in particular had been shot for five years, it was not because Hopkins and Jones were "over hyped."

Yeh but not any from the recent super middle weight. Which was and still is notoriously segragated.

Hopkins would have come to fight if he had been in his prime against calzaghe and got spanked, he managed to make it to a split decision because he didnt kid himself that he could beat calzaghe in a real fight and managed to do anything but fight.

Your saying calzaghe didnt beat anyone in their prime and that kessler is a nobody. An im saying to you that neither did hopkins or RJJ, they just faught other overhyped american fighters and not only that, they dodge every good british fighter until they needed the paydays.

Simple bullshit. In that other thread I said that Kessler was a good win and that Calzaghe is the best Super Middleweight of all time based on accomplishments. I never said anything remotely negative about Kessler. I am sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder about American boxing, that is fine, Robinson and Armstrong and Greb and Pep and Louis and Ali and Leonard and Hagler and Holyfield do not need your recognition, but I'm not going to listen to this hackneyed nonsense about how Hopkins and Jones ducked British boxers when Jones destroyed one in Woods and when they both took on Calzaghe who they fought when he was on top and when they were slipping. Hopkins gave Calzaghe a very competitive fight and barely lost, he tired in the later rounds which is to be expected of a 43 year old fighting once a year... Hopkins at 36 vs. Calzaghe at 36 is a very different story. Saying that Jones or Hopkins never beat anyone good in their prime is quite myopic.
Again, get serious.

I Feel Fine wrote:Simple bullshit. In that other thread I said that Kessler was a good win and that Calzaghe is the best Super Middleweight of all time based on accomplishments. I never said anything remotely negative about Kessler. I am sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder about American boxing, that is fine, Robinson and Armstrong and Greb and Pep and Louis and Ali and Leonard and Hagler and Holyfield do not your recognition, but I'm not going to listen to this hackneyed nonsense about how Hopkins and Jones ducked British boxers when Jones destroyed one in Woods and when they both took on Calzaghe who they fought when he was on top and when they were slipping. Hopkins gave Calzaghe a very competitive fight and barely lost, he tired in the later rounds which is to be expected of a 43 year old fighting once a year... Hopkins at 36 vs. Calzaghe at 36 is a very different story. Saying that Jones or Hopkins never beat anyone good in their prime is quite myopic.
Again, get serious.

obviously you dont understand english too well - i said not in the recent super middle weight. Unless you consider louis, robinson, ali, leonard, hagler and holyfield recent super middle weights. I havent got a chip on my shoulder about american boxers in general i have a chip on my shoulder over hopkins and RJJ.

At no point has clinton woods ever been considered as being anywhere near on the same level as benn, eubank, collins or calzaghe, thats a complete joke and even demonstrates my point for me. Its no different to calzaghe smashing up byron mitchel.

Hopkins didnt give a competative fight, he didnt even fight for a start he just spoiled he even laid on the floor for 3 minutes faking a low blow, it was an embarrasment to boxing. RJJ didnt take calzaghe on because he doesnt dodge fighters, he took him on because he needed a high profile fight and purse.

I remember toney saying before the lacy fight that calzaghe hadnt faught anyone apart from eubank and lacy was going to destroy him. It was only when he beat lacy he became a lucrative matchmaker, for hopkins and RJJ otherwise they wouldnt have even considered still getting in the ring with him.

Right, when it comes to boxing or the English language the British invented both and no one can surpass them in either field.
You have been pathologically critical of American boxing in these two threads so don't start back pedaling now. You denied my comment in the other thread about America having done more for the sport. If you do not appreciate American boxing history, that is fine. But no one believes that Britain is going to take its place, not with fighters like Froch and Haye. As for the Super Middleweight division, it has not had many dominant American fighters there for quite some time, but I think most would agree that when Roy Jones was at that weight there was no one better. To say that he should have fought more top Brits is redundant because he should have fought more top Americans as well, but his talent was not deniable and there have been plenty of American greats who took on all comers and plenty of British greats who did not.
British fans are funny about Woods. When he's beating Glen Johnson in controversial fights he is a top name and American's have to respect him. When Jones and Tarver dominate him he is a nobody and they never heard of him. Reminds me of what Ken Buchanan said, something to the effect that "When I win I am British and when I lose I am Scottish."
Saying that Hopkins didn't give him a competitive fight is a conversation ender. No point in addressing you further. You remember Toney's comments and I remember people saying that Calzaghe was going to knock Hopkins out; funny stuff. And you answered your own question about why Jones and Hopkins fought Calzaghe... fighters fight for money, in case you are not aware. That is true everywhere, even in the utopia of Great Britain where everyone is honest and no one looks for easy fights.

I Feel Fine wrote:Right, when it comes to boxing or the English language the British invented both and no one can surpass them in either field.
You have been pathologically critical of American boxing in these two threads so don't start back pedaling now. You denied my comment in the other thread about America having done more for the sport. If you do not appreciate American boxing history, that is fine. But no one believes that Britain is going to take its place, not with fighters like Froch and Haye. As for the Super Middleweight division, it has not had many dominant American fighters there for quite some time, but I think most would agree that when Roy Jones was at that weight there was no one better. To say that he should have fought more top Brits is redundant because he should have fought more top Americans as well, but his talent was not deniable and there have been plenty of American greats who took on all comers and plenty of British greats who did not.
British fans are funny about Woods. When he's beating Glen Johnson in controversial fights he is a top name and American's have to respect him. When Jones and Tarver dominate him he is a nobody and they never heard of him. Reminds me of what Ken Buchanan said, something to the effect that "When I win I am British and when I lose I am Scottish."
Saying that Hopkins didn't give him a competitive fight is a conversation ender. No point in addressing you further. You remember Toney's comments and I remember people saying that Calzaghe was going to knock Hopkins out; funny stuff. And you answered your own question about why Jones and Hopkins fought Calzaghe... fighters fight for money, in case you are not aware. That is true everywhere, even in the utopia of Great Britain where everyone is honest and no one looks for easy fights.

No the americans and the british anti calzaghe aka froch lovers will tell you that RJJ was the best at that weight, the majority of people outside the US will tell you calzaghe was the best (there is an entire world outside the US). Clinton Woods and Froch are considered by their own fans as greats but that is a small minority of boxing fans in england, there has never been any real belief that clintons woods was on the same level as the elites, or that froch ever will be.

Calzaghe would have knocked hopkins out 5 years ago without a doubt. Your talking like hopkins actually got in the ring and faught, any half decent fighter can last the distance by spoiling.

You remember people saying calzaghe was going to knock out hopkins? not really that rediculous since he won the fight and hopkins was laid on the floor for a good proportion of the fight, who got the belt?

Haye isnt considered a great, he's just the only boxer with a chance at a world title. He's more likely to gain a belt than the overhyped soon to be on his back areola.

America has done more for boxing!!!! absolutely - in america.

Im pretty sure i already said in the other thread that america wasnt second string to britain in boxing. Having said that, you have no legitimate Cruiser weight, Heavy weight or super middle weight contenders. And apart from the pro sport you arent even a blip on world scene.

I know my boxing history, i've got a whole rack of dvds showing great american boxers that im a fan of, that doesnt stop the vast majority of american top boxers being anything other than cannon fodder for decent fighters.

kingfinn wrote:

TigerMoth wrote:Joe vs:

Tommy Hearns
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Michael Spinks
Bob Foster
Archie Moore
Carlos Monzoon
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Chris Eubank
Nigel Benn
Jake LaMotta
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
"Bobby" Czyz
Harry Greb
Stanley Ketchell
Ezzard Charles
John Conteh
Nino Benvenuti

Who would Joe have beaten?

why isnt collins on the list?

calzaghe would have beaten them all. if hopkins thought he could have beaten calzaghe why didnt try fighting him when they got in the ring together instead of spending the fight spoiling.

People are talking about toney, hopkins and rjj being greats! collins, benn, eubank or calzaghe would have been big fights for all of them at the now super middle weight. Note these so called greats dodged them all or lost to calzaghe.

Who has Bernard Hopkins actually beat? Tarver! thats about it and i wouldnt consider him anything better than a frank bruno type level of champion.

All these american fighters ever did was make reputations off each other, rematch after rematch, they never wanted to risk loosing their belts, reputations and big purse fights to british fighters and avoided them like the plague.

Hopkins lost to a second rater like taylor. Taylor a man knocked out by carl froch (the poor mans calzaghe lol), froch a fighter who is in all reality only just in the top 6 super middle weights if that.

Oh, and Kingfanboy, btw, im British, not American, only difference is that im not a backward un-educated nationalistic meathead like yourself

There is an entire world outside the U.S? Okay, though I think I was aware. It is funny how the British in their moments of anti-American hyperbole forget their own history of nationalism and imperialism. Get serious.
Calzaghe would have knocked Hopkins out five years ago? D