BoxRec

Lazily scanning the web last night for high profile top 10 lists. It may be a tired adventure for some but I still enjoy it.

Okay, here are the rules, you can only burn someone else's list if you post your own top 10. If I get enough I'll collate them all to get a sort of snap-shot of boxrec members' thinking.

ESPN 2007

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes


Monte Cox

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson


Kevin Rooney

1- Joe Louis
2- Rocky Marciano
3- Muhammad Ali
4- Mike Tyson
5- George Foreman
6- Floyd Patterson
7- Joe Frazier
8- Jack Dempsey
9- Evander Holyfield,
10- Jack Johnson


Freddie Roach

1- Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3- Larry Holmes
4- Joe Frazier
5- Evander Holyfield
6- Jack Johnson
7- Rocky Marciano
8- Mike Tyson
9- George Foreman
10- James Toney


Gil Clancy

1- Joe Louis
2- Rocky Marciano,
3- Muhammad Ali
4 = Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson


Manny Steward

1- Muhammad Ali
2- Joe Louis
3- Larry Holmes
4- George Foreman
5- Lennox Lewis
6- Gene Tunney
7- Jack Johnson
8- Rocky Marciano
9- Sonny Liston
10- Mike Tyson

Feel free to fry any of these lists you don't agree with.

And in the spirit of the game here's mine...

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Dempsey
6. Foreman
7. Langford
8. Frazier
9. Holyfield
10 = Lewis, Jeffries

ESPN 2007

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes


I'll let someone else tackle Toney, LMAO.

Dempsey at #3? I've never been one to rate popularity over substance. At best, he was a very talented fighter with a very shoddy resume and a largely nonexistent title reign.

My feelings on Dempsey prohibit me from seeing tunney at #5 based off of what? 3 fights?

Ezzard is the best p4p fighter on the list for my money, but I can't see him in the Heavy top 10 and certainly not ahead of Foreman or Holmes.

Larry is too low, even if you're not a Holmes fan, he has to be at least in the top 7.

1. louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. J Johnson
7. Lewis
8. Frazier
9. Liston
10. marciano

1 - Holmes
2 - Louis
3 - Holyfield
4 - Foreman
5 - Ali
6 - Marciano
7 - Patterson
8 - Charles
9 - Frasier
10 - Tyson

i am well aware my list is gonna come under fire because of who is at number 5 and number 1

Sorry, it's early, by burn I took it as rip up. LOL, not that it's high profile.

Michael Swann

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Holmes
8. Sullivan
9. Liston
10. Dempsey

I can't apply myself to the Toney question...

Looking at Rooney's list. I don't think Rocky or Tyson should be in the top 4. I can see them in a top 10 but top 4 seems to high. I also don't think Paterson (as good as he was) should be in the top 10.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Sorry, it's early, by burn I took it as rip up. LOL, not that it's high profile.

Michael Swann

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Holmes
8. Sullivan
9. Liston
10. Dempsey

Yes - Burn, flame, barbecue, rip up, tip into, crush, criticise...whatever the terminology just go for it...

Ezzard wrote:I can't apply myself to the Toney question...

Looking at Rooney's list. I don't think Rocky or Tyson should be in the top 4. I can see them in a top 10 but top 4 seems to high. I also don't think Paterson (as good as he was) should be in the top 10.

Agreed on all counts, Tyson can't be rated above holyfield. Wherever you rank them, Evander comes first. Resume is better as well as a head to head thumping.

Ezzard wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Sorry, it's early, by burn I took it as rip up. LOL, not that it's high profile.

Michael Swann

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Holmes
8. Sullivan
9. Liston
10. Dempsey

Yes - Burn, flame, barbecue, rip up, tip into, crush, criticise...whatever the terminology just go for it...

Ah, so I got it wrong twice? I noticed you hadn't slammed any of it so i figured you meant copy another one for the right to smash on them.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I can't apply myself to the Toney question...

Looking at Rooney's list. I don't think Rocky or Tyson should be in the top 4. I can see them in a top 10 but top 4 seems to high. I also don't think Paterson (as good as he was) should be in the top 10.

Agreed on all counts, Tyson can't be rated above holyfield. Wherever you rank them, Evander comes first. Resume is better as well as a head to head thumping.

Agree, but that thread has been done a million times.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ezzard wrote:
Yes - Burn, flame, barbecue, rip up, tip into, crush, criticise...whatever the terminology just go for it...

Ah, so I got it wrong twice? I noticed you hadn't slammed any of it so i figured you meant copy another one for the right to smash on them.

Writing up your own gives you the right to bash anyone else's on the thread!

Mine

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammed Ali
3 Rocky Marciano
4 Larry Holmes
5 Joe Frazier
6 Jack Dempsey
7 Gene Tunney
8 Jack Johnson
9 Sonny Liston
10 Lennox Lewis

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Dempsey at #3? I've never been one to rate popularity over substance. At best, he was a very talented fighter with a very shoddy resume and a largely nonexistent title reign.

My feelings on Dempsey prohibit me from seeing tunney at #5 based off of what? 3 fights?

Ezzard is the best p4p fighter on the list for my money, but I can't see him in the Heavy top 10 and certainly not ahead of Foreman or Holmes.

Larry is too low, even if you're not a Holmes fan, he has to be at least in the top 7.

1. louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. J Johnson
7. Lewis
8. Frazier
9. Liston
10. marciano

- Holy Jezzebelle's Witlessness, YOU put Mr. Larry at #3?

Based on what, the graphic and measurable video evidence that correlates count of the marbled rings of his derriere padding with that of his career padding count?

That sees the culmination of his career planted on his derriere after it overweighted the rest of him in his final career bout against Butterbean?

Dunno, in some camps that would make Mr. Larry numero uno.

The only surefire rating is #1, Joe Louis. Everything pre and post Louis forever up for grabs.

2. Jack Dempsey
3. Ali
4. George Foreman
5. Jim Jeffries
6. Sam Langford
7. Mike Tyson
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Rocky Marciano
10 Wlad.......Dummies never rated Ali in his day and the Dummy Jrs and IIIs and IVs don't rate Wlad today.

Joe Louis' opponents would make fine barbecue for Ali's opponents. Foreman loves a good barbecue. Bert Sugar should smoke more cigars and do less analysis. Kevin Rooney is still recovering from the Arguello fight. I do love Clancy's list.
Might as well add my list, though my list usually changes every time I make one:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Marciano
8. Frazier
9. Holyfield
10. Liston

Dempsey and Louis's resumes are critiqued the most out of pure ignorance as to those historical periods (I'll concede Dempsey's title reign wasn't great (but not bad) but his pre-title raze of the division was). If I hear one more person defend their derailment of Louis's opponents by bringing up the out of proper context 'bum of the month' phrase I'll lose my lunch. Only Ali overall beat more quality opponents and faced such a wide variety of stylistic threats. But Louis edges out Ali on my list b/c he was more consistent.

I had too much trouble piecing my list in order this time around, so I'm just going to name my top ten, irrespective of order. Here they are...

Dempsey
Louis
Marciano
Foreman
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Liston
Frazier

That is a mix of accomplishment & head-to-head. It was difficult to leave out Lewis, Bowe, &, to some extent, the likes of Jeffries & Tunney.

Anyone who believes that Louis was significantly more consistent than Ali is dreaming. For the vast majority of their careers their consistency was pretty much the same. On their 34th birthdays Ali and Louis had beaten every opponent that they had faced, Ali having avenged two losses and Louis having avenged one, but Louis also received a gift against Walcott the year earlier and would have to avenge that in the rematch which took place that year. Their consistency was thus the same, except Ali had beaten better opposition. At that point Ali was coming off Manila and was starting to go into decline physically, slurring his speech and so forth. These are the years that Louis fans ignore when it comes to Louis, because god knows he would have beaten Charles and Marciano in his prime, few would question that and neither would I, but like armchair boxing fans they like to throw mud at Ali for those same declining years from 76-81, hypocritically, because he wound up with more losses and more bad performances due to greater wear and tear than Louis, and so while Louis' declining years mean nothing to them Ali's declining years are presented as being the years that define his career. As if Louis would have beaten Holmes at 38 and Berbick at 39 with a hole in his membrane and probably with some early Parkinsons. He only has two less official losses on his record than Ali, and if you want to throw their robbery gift wins into it then Louis has three less losses than Ali does. Ali also avenged more of his losses.
As for the title defenses, I think Ali will take non-title fight wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Foster, Bugner and Norton over title defenses over the likes of Roper, Paycheck, McCoy, Burman, Musto and a shadow of Conn in the rematch. The difference of six more defenses over that kind of opposition should not make any real difference to anyone with a little objectivity. Ali had less defenses because he had less of his prime than Louis did, he did not have his title when he came back so his fights did not count as defenses as they did for Louis when he returned, and Louis did not have to fight a prime Frazier five months after his comeback.
Anyone who ranks Louis higher than Ali based on consistency and title defenses alone may as well rank Mayweather over Leonard.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Dempsey at #3? I've never been one to rate popularity over substance. At best, he was a very talented fighter with a very shoddy resume and a largely nonexistent title reign.

My feelings on Dempsey prohibit me from seeing tunney at #5 based off of what? 3 fights?

Ezzard is the best p4p fighter on the list for my money, but I can't see him in the Heavy top 10 and certainly not ahead of Foreman or Holmes.

Larry is too low, even if you're not a Holmes fan, he has to be at least in the top 7.

1. louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. J Johnson
7. Lewis
8. Frazier
9. Liston
10. marciano

- Holy Jezzebelle's Witlessness, YOU put Mr. Larry at #3?

Based on what, the graphic and measurable video evidence that correlates count of the marbled rings of his derriere padding with that of his career padding count?

That sees the culmination of his career planted on his derriere after it overweighted the rest of him in his final career bout against Butterbean?

Dunno, in some camps that would make Mr. Larry numero uno.

The only surefire rating is #1, Joe Louis. Everything pre and post Louis forever up for grabs.

2. Jack Dempsey
3. Ali
4. George Foreman
5. Jim Jeffries
6. Sam Langford
7. Mike Tyson
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Rocky Marciano
10 Wlad.......Dummies never rated Ali in his day and the Dummy Jrs and IIIs and IVs don't rate Wlad today.

There's no point mentioning Tyson to you so let's skate over that one.

Wlad is the controversial pick. I think the Klit Boys get over criticised. I think they are fine fighters but I can't see how Wlad can sit in this company with his whiskers. Wlad can be got at. Vitali has less skill but is the more formidable opponent.

No Johnson?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I had too much trouble piecing my list in order this time around, so I'm just going to name my top ten, irrespective of order. Here they are...

Dempsey
Louis
Marciano
Foreman
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Liston
Frazier

That is a mix of accomplishment & head-to-head. It was difficult to leave out Lewis, Bowe, &, to some extent, the likes of Jeffries & Tunney.

Come on Irene, order please.

Most people's lists change the moment they post them. And you can always detract attention from your lists short-comings by barbecuing someone else's.

I Feel Fine wrote: As for the title defenses, I think Ali will take non-title fight wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Foster, Bugner and Norton over title defenses over the likes of Roper, Paycheck, McCoy, Burman, Musto and a shadow of Conn in the rematch. The difference of six more defenses over that kind of opposition should not make any real difference to anyone with a little objectivity. Ali had less defenses because he had less of his prime than Louis did, he did not have his title when he came back so his fights did not count as defenses as they did for Louis when he returned, and Louis did not have to fight a prime Frazier five months after his comeback.
Anyone who ranks Louis higher than Ali based on consistency and title defenses alone may as well rank Mayweather over Leonard.

- Jumpin' Jeepers Jezzebel, this boy operates his own Dumber and Dumberest show!

Ali was at the peak of traditional athletic prime, 28-29yrs in his comeback leading to Frazier after a very soft first run at the 60s. I've always been consistant that the lineal nutcases always do a poor job justifying their lineal title nonsense when they do stuff like leave Quarry and Oscar out of Ali's title defenses. But he LOST his title to Frazier concussively, so that ends any title defense claims until post Foreman. In IFF universe, he's got the likes of Lubbers and Mathis included in title defenses. Will the witlessness ever end?

Joe was 32 coming off a much longer, more brutal career after 4 much tougher yrs off, and you want to crack on him for not fighting a Frazier now? He was 54-1 coming into the Conn rematch dating back to age 28 compared to Ali's 29-0 record coming into the first Quarry fight at age 28. At age 32 coming off the Foreman fight, Ali is 45-2 when he had plenty of time to catch Joe. Not really a big deal to me save when you claim Ali had less of a prime to accumulate defenses, a bunch of bad beans and baloney.

BTW, you should be feeling VERY LUCKY as an Ali fan that Frazier adhered to the rules of boxing in the first Ali bout. Had Joe ignored the neutral corner rule as Ali got away with in the Bonavena fight, both contested at MSG months apart, Ali would have been knocked dead cold on the spot and he and his fans might never have recovered.

And nobody cares about Mayweather and Leonard in this thread. Will it ever end with you?

Ezzard wrote: Wlad is the controversial pick. I think the Klit Boys get over criticised. I think they are fine fighters but I can't see how Wlad can sit in this company with his whiskers. Wlad can be got at. Vitali has less skill but is the more formidable opponent.

No Johnson?

- Johnson somewhere in my top 25. Much greater historical figure than a fighter.

Let's look at Ezzy world:

.............Loss by KO
1. Ali x1
2. Louis x2
3. Johnson x7
4. Holmes x1
5. Dempsey x1
6. Foreman x1
7. Langford x9
8. Frazier x3
9. Holyfield x2
10 = Lewis, Jeffries x2/x1

Hmmmmmm..................

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Marciano
7. Frazier
8. Lewis
9. Dempsey
10. Liston

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ezzard wrote: Wlad is the controversial pick. I think the Klit Boys get over criticised. I think they are fine fighters but I can't see how Wlad can sit in this company with his whiskers. Wlad can be got at. Vitali has less skill but is the more formidable opponent.

No Johnson?

- Johnson somewhere in my top 25. Much greater historical figure than a fighter.

Let's look at Ezzy world:

.............Loss by KO
1. Ali x1
2. Louis x2
3. Johnson x7
4. Holmes x1
5. Dempsey x1
6. Foreman x1
7. Langford x9
8. Frazier x3
9. Holyfield x2
10 = Lewis, Jeffries x2/x1

Hmmmmmm..................

Not the full picture though... Some of the old timers were getting KO'd beyond the 12 round mark Wlad fights to. Also, Wlad has been dropped by some less than stellar fighters. Tyson was stopped what was it 5 or 6 times? But he wasn't really susceptible to a 1 punch KO. I think Wlad would have suffered more defeats had he fought someone who could finish... I like Vitali better. But it's a fair enough inclusion.

Ezzard wrote:Not the full picture though... Some of the old timers were getting KO'd beyond the 12 round mark Wlad fights to. Also, Wlad has been dropped by some less than stellar fighters. Tyson was stopped what was it 5 or 6 times? But he wasn't really susceptible to a 1 punch KO. I think Wlad would have suffered more defeats had he fought someone who could finish... I like Vitali better. But it's a fair enough inclusion.

- With a 85% KO ratio, it just means they'd get KOed that much earlier fighting Wlad. Most of the fighters scoring the KDs over your top ten wouldn't have budged the chin of Wlad who's never been counted out BTW, unlike most on your list who were given full counts.

Look, late round KOs are pretty much an anomoly and not representative of the full picture.

In Ezzy world:

.............knockdowns
1. Ali x4
2. Louis x2 dozen?
3. Johnson 2x on film, but with 7 KO losses, surely a dozen+ more
4. Holmes 3x at least, and maybe a couple x more
5. Dempsey x4 at least, and maybe more
6. Foreman x3
7. Langford with 9 KO losses, surely a dozen or more
8. Frazier x5 total against Foreman as I recall.
9. Holyfield x2-3? Maybe more
10 = Lewis, Jeffries L twice/ J twice

Hmmmmmmm............

Ezzard wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I had too much trouble piecing my list in order this time around, so I'm just going to name my top ten, irrespective of order. Here they are...

Dempsey
Louis
Marciano
Foreman
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Liston
Frazier

That is a mix of accomplishment & head-to-head. It was difficult to leave out Lewis, Bowe, &, to some extent, the likes of Jeffries & Tunney.

Come on Irene, order please.

Most people's lists change the moment they post them. And you can always detract attention from your lists short-comings by barbecuing someone else's.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mike Tyson

Now, I'll point out, some of the fighters listed are ranked above guys I'd expect them to lose to. For instance, I'd favour (slightly) Liston to KO Foreman & Holmes, Tyson to stop Marciano & Frazier, & Frazier to stop Holmes (over fifteen rounds). However, when next I factor in their career accomplishments, a fighter I'd consider the underdog can leapfrog another. I only give Liston a slight head-to-head edge against Foreman, for instance, & Foreman has by far the more imposing accolades, so he jumps.

This is how I see the head-to-head playing out...

Louis W TKO14 Ali
Louis W KO5 Foreman
Louis W TKO12 Holmes
Louis W TKO7 Dempsey
Louis W KO9 Liston
Louis W TKO2 Frazier
Louis W TKO8 Marciano
Louis W TKO9 Holyfield
Louis W KO7 Tyson

Ali L TKO14 Louis
Ali W TKO11 Foreman
Ali W SD15 Holmes
Ali W UD15 Dempsey
Ali W TKO12 Liston
Ali W UD15 Frazier
Ali W TKO12 Marciano
Ali W UD15 Holyfield
Ali W TKO9 Tyson

Foreman L KO5 Louis
Foreman L TKO11 Ali
Foreman W TKO4 Holmes
Foreman W TKO3 Dempsey
Foreman L KO5 Liston
Foreman W TKO3 Frazier
Foreman W TKO4 Marciano
Foreman W TKO5 Holyfield
Foreman W TKO3 Tyson

Holmes L TKO12 Louis
Holmes L SD15 Ali
Holmes L TKO4 Foreman
Holmes W UD15 Dempsey
Holmes L TKO6 Liston
Holmes L TKO13 Frazier
Holmes W UD15 Marciano
Holmes W UD15 Holyfield
Holmes W TKO11 Tyson

Dempsey L TKO7 Louis
Dempsey L UD15 Ali
Dempsey L TKO3 Foreman
Dempsey L UD15 Holmes
Dempsey W TKO6 Liston
Dempsey W TKO4 Frazier
Dempsey W TKO7 Marciano
Dempsey W TKO9 Holyfield
Dempsey W KO6 Tyson

Liston L KO9 Louis
Liston L TKO12 Ali
Liston W KO5 Foreman
Liston W TKO6 Holmes
Liston L TKO6 Dempsey
Liston W TKO3 Frazier
Liston W TKO5 Marciano
Liston W TKO8 Holyfield
Liston W KO5 Tyson

Frazier L TKO2 Louis
Frazier L UD15 Ali
Frazier L TKO3 Foreman
Frazier W TKO13 Holmes
Frazier L TKO4 Dempsey
Frazier L TKO3 Liston
Frazier L MD15 Marciano
Frazier W TKO14 Holyfield
Frazier L TKO4 Tyson

Marciano L TKO8 Louis
Marciano L TKO12 Ali
Marciano L TKO4 Foreman
Marciano L UD15 Holmes
Marciano L TKO7 Dempsey
Marciano L TKO5 Liston
Marciano W MD15 Frazier
Marciano W SD15 Holyfield
Marciano L TKO3 Tyson

Holyfield L TKO9 Louis
Holyfield L UD15 Ali
Holyfield L TKO5 Foreman
Holyfield L UD15 Holmes
Holyfield L TKO9 Dempsey
Holyfield L TKO8 Liston
Holyfield L TKO14 Frazier
Holyfield L SD15 Marciano
Holyfield W UD12 Tyson

Tyson L KO7 Louis
Tyson L TKO12 Ali
Tyson L TKO3 Foreman
Tyson L TKO11 Holmes
Tyson L KO6 Dempsey
Tyson L KO5 Liston
Tyson W TKO4 Frazier
Tyson W TKO3 Marciano
Tyson L UD12 Holyfield

Needless to say, there were several bouts which I could call borderline toss-ups, &, to a certain extent, it was at times difficult to split fighters on accolades, as well. Who wants to barbecue it?