BoxRec

People keep referring to Danny Green as a "three-weight world champion" to hype the Jones fight, while Jones is talking up winning his first cruiserweight world title.

I - and most others - do not count interim or IBO titles as proper "world championships", so can the respected boxing sites please refrain from reprinting this spin? Danny is a one-weight (one-fight, in fact) former world champion. That's decent enough in its own right (although Drews was not exactly a phenomenon), but let's not make him out to be more than he is.

It's a big fight for Australia; a mega event, no doubt about it, but let's drop the "world championship" nonsense.

Oliver you are not stating anything new, nor are you making a point that would have otherwise been missed by any Australian boxing fan that would post here.

So what is your point?

Are you trying to stir emotions, or elicit a repsonse about a fighter that we consider one of our best?

Are you trying to deflate what will be one of the, if not the, biggest fights we have ever had on these shores?

Green, RJJ and the promotional team are doing nothing more than you would expect. Drumming up interest in the vehicle with which they hope to make a great deal of money. It makes sense here as it would in the US or Europe.

Go throw your arms up in the air somewhere else please.

toppity wrote:Oliver you are not stating anything new, nor are you making a point that would have otherwise been missed by any Australian boxing fan that would post here.

So what is your point?

Are you trying to stir emotions, or elicit a repsonse about a fighter that we consider one of our best?

Are you trying to deflate what will be one of the, if not the, biggest fights we have ever had on these shores?

Green, RJJ and the promotional team are doing nothing more than you would expect. Drumming up interest in the vehicle with which they hope to make a great deal of money. It makes sense here as it would in the US or Europe.

Go throw your arms up in the air somewhere else please.

Hey your guy is a pretty good boxer and it's fine to be proud of him, but Oliver makes a point that it's always fair to make. The fact that someone somewhere calls you a champion doesn't make it so. I don't know offhand who the man was in the 168 pound division back in 2003, but I'm relatively sure it wasn't Eric Lucas. So if you want to even be arguably the champion, fight someone who is worthy of the title. If he wanted to be the light heavyweight champion in 2007, he needed to be fighting Bernard Hopkins (or, hell, even Zsolt Erdei), not Stipe Drews. And it's not like those guys were ducking him...he hadn't earned a shot at the real championship. Likewise, if he wants to be the cruiserweight "world champion," in 2009 he needs to be fighting Tomasz Adamek, not Julio Cesar Dominguez or even Roy Jones.

I'm not trying to take anything away from him that he actually deserves. He is/was a legit contender in all 3 of the divisions that he is/was supposedly a "world champion" in, but ultimately he's barely a titlist, which is a poor excuse for being a real champion in the first place.

Have fun with the fight. I don't begrudge you the right to love your local fighter or even to view him as more accomplished than he really is, but the fact that so-called boxing fans actually fall for this loose world championship talk (which some must, if the promoters keep bothering to spit it out) is a sad commentary on the sport and something that I think cannot be combated enough.

Did you even read toppo's post?

marcianofan wrote:

toppity wrote:Oliver you are not stating anything new, nor are you making a point that would have otherwise been missed by any Australian boxing fan that would post here.

So what is your point?

Are you trying to stir emotions, or elicit a repsonse about a fighter that we consider one of our best?

Are you trying to deflate what will be one of the, if not the, biggest fights we have ever had on these shores?

Green, RJJ and the promotional team are doing nothing more than you would expect. Drumming up interest in the vehicle with which they hope to make a great deal of money. It makes sense here as it would in the US or Europe.

Go throw your arms up in the air somewhere else please.

Hey your guy is a pretty good boxer and it's fine to be proud of him, but Oliver makes a point that it's always fair to make. The fact that someone somewhere calls you a champion doesn't make it so. I don't know offhand who the man was in the 168 pound division back in 2003, but I'm relatively sure it wasn't Eric Lucas. So if you want to even be arguably the champion, fight someone who is worthy of the title. If he wanted to be the light heavyweight champion in 2007, he needed to be fighting Bernard Hopkins (or, hell, even Zsolt Erdei), not Stipe Drews. And it's not like those guys were ducking him...he hadn't earned a shot at the real championship. Likewise, if he wants to be the cruiserweight "world champion," in 2009 he needs to be fighting Tomasz Adamek, not Julio Cesar Dominguez or even Roy Jones.

I'm not trying to take anything away from him that he actually deserves. He is/was a legit contender in all 3 of the divisions that he is/was supposedly a "world champion" in, but ultimately he's barely a titlist, which is a poor excuse for being a real champion in the first place.

Have fun with the fight. I don't begrudge you the right to love your local fighter or even to view him as more accomplished than he really is, but the fact that so-called boxing fans actually fall for this loose world championship talk (which some must, if the promoters keep bothering to spit it out) is a sad commentary on the sport and something that I think cannot be combated enough.

Fair comment in general.

However my point is not that he was a legitimate champ (undisputed or otherwise), in fact I'm sure i never stated that, it was that boxing fans who post here understand the respect the IBO deserves (very little). The talk of being a world champion is not for the boxing fans, it's for the general public. No one posting here believes Danny is anything more than what he is. A one time holder of a portion of the world championship.

Boxing fans want unification..... they want a singular champ. No one disagrees with that. But stating it in such a way as Oliver did way seems redundant on a fan based forum which is structured to discuss and enjoy Australian boxing.

toppity wrote:

marcianofan wrote:

toppity wrote:Oliver you are not stating anything new, nor are you making a point that would have otherwise been missed by any Australian boxing fan that would post here.

So what is your point?

Are you trying to stir emotions, or elicit a repsonse about a fighter that we consider one of our best?

Are you trying to deflate what will be one of the, if not the, biggest fights we have ever had on these shores?

Green, RJJ and the promotional team are doing nothing more than you would expect. Drumming up interest in the vehicle with which they hope to make a great deal of money. It makes sense here as it would in the US or Europe.

Go throw your arms up in the air somewhere else please.

Hey your guy is a pretty good boxer and it's fine to be proud of him, but Oliver makes a point that it's always fair to make. The fact that someone somewhere calls you a champion doesn't make it so. I don't know offhand who the man was in the 168 pound division back in 2003, but I'm relatively sure it wasn't Eric Lucas. So if you want to even be arguably the champion, fight someone who is worthy of the title. If he wanted to be the light heavyweight champion in 2007, he needed to be fighting Bernard Hopkins (or, hell, even Zsolt Erdei), not Stipe Drews. And it's not like those guys were ducking him...he hadn't earned a shot at the real championship. Likewise, if he wants to be the cruiserweight "world champion," in 2009 he needs to be fighting Tomasz Adamek, not Julio Cesar Dominguez or even Roy Jones.

I'm not trying to take anything away from him that he actually deserves. He is/was a legit contender in all 3 of the divisions that he is/was supposedly a "world champion" in, but ultimately he's barely a titlist, which is a poor excuse for being a real champion in the first place.

Have fun with the fight. I don't begrudge you the right to love your local fighter or even to view him as more accomplished than he really is, but the fact that so-called boxing fans actually fall for this loose world championship talk (which some must, if the promoters keep bothering to spit it out) is a sad commentary on the sport and something that I think cannot be combated enough.

Fair comment in general.

However my point is not that he was a legitimate champ (undisputed or otherwise), in fact I'm sure i never stated that, it was that boxing fans who post here understand the respect the IBO deserves (very little). The talk of being a world champion is not for the boxing fans, it's for the general public. No one posting here believes Danny is anything more than what he is. A one time holder of a portion of the world championship.

Boxing fans want unification..... they want a singular champ. No one disagrees with that. But stating it in such a way as Oliver did way seems redundant on a fan based forum which is structured to discuss and enjoy Australian boxing.

I know WE know the truth of the matter, but I guess my point - which admittedly I didn't make in the OP - is that it's misleading the more casual fans/general public. Then, to the knowledgeable fans, I just think it's insulting that reputable sites repeat the line when they know their target audience understands the difference between the belts.

And no, I'm not deliberately stirring. Like most fans, multiple belts are a bugbear of mine, but also I accept there's very little we can do about it. However there has been a subtle change in recent years to lesser belts being given less attention. Therefore I just don't like it when Green is trumpeted as a "three-weight world champion", when he plainly and simply isn't. Same as when Hoppa was giving it the big one about fighting for "the world title" in Vegas.

That's not to detract from Green as a fighter and a man, nor to detract from his fans and their right to support him, nor from the event as a true blockbuster for Australia. This is a huge fight and I'm happy for Oz to get such a prestige event, as the commercial success of this contest can only bode well for the future of the sport there. This fight is going to be HUGE and it doesn't need bogus claims about its attached title status, or about Green's achievements, to help it along.

I think the IBO is gaining more respect these days, With Guys like Hatton,Klitshko, Darchinian and Pac owning there belt. Most org's are all in it for Money, You fight for a Regional belt to get ranked you pay money,You want a higher ranking you pay money, Its all down to who pays the most and who gets the higher ranking.

At least with the IBO they use there own ranking system, There is no way to buy a top 15 ranking as you don't need it challenge for the belt. Phil might be able to explain it better than me. As im not entirely sure thats how it works.

Im not here defending them im just saying they are actually trying something diffrent, And at the moment id say they have more credability than the WBA which is a dead set disgrace with its 3 champs in some divisions. All i just said does not mean i agree with all there Decisions, I just like the idea of having an independent ranking. Without Biased or Favoritism

oliverfennell wrote:
I know WE know the truth of the matter, but I guess my point - which admittedly I didn't make in the OP - is that it's misleading the more casual fans/general public. Then, to the knowledgeable fans, I just think it's insulting that reputable sites repeat the line when they know their target audience understands the difference between the belts.

And no, I'm not deliberately stirring. Like most fans, multiple belts are a bugbear of mine, but also I accept there's very little we can do about it. However there has been a subtle change in recent years to lesser belts being given less attention. Therefore I just don't like it when Green is trumpeted as a "three-weight world champion", when he plainly and simply isn't. Same as when Hoppa was giving it the big one about fighting for "the world title" in Vegas.

That's not to detract from Green as a fighter and a man, nor to detract from his fans and their right to support him, nor from the event as a true blockbuster for Australia. This is a huge fight and I'm happy for Oz to get such a prestige event, as the commercial success of this contest can only bode well for the future of the sport there. This fight is going to be HUGE and it doesn't need bogus claims about its attached title status, or about Green's achievements, to help it along.

OK then.......fair comment. It is one of my single biggest problems with the sport as well.

When's this fight on anyway?

Recently I saw Jones spruiking the fight on tv. He had a receding hairline and looked every one of his 40 years

bollox wrote:When's this fight on anyway?

Recently I saw Jones spruiking the fight on tv. He had a receding hairline and looked every one of his 40 years

2nd december in Sydney.

toppity wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:
I know WE know the truth of the matter, but I guess my point - which admittedly I didn't make in the OP - is that it's misleading the more casual fans/general public. Then, to the knowledgeable fans, I just think it's insulting that reputable sites repeat the line when they know their target audience understands the difference between the belts.

And no, I'm not deliberately stirring. Like most fans, multiple belts are a bugbear of mine, but also I accept there's very little we can do about it. However there has been a subtle change in recent years to lesser belts being given less attention. Therefore I just don't like it when Green is trumpeted as a "three-weight world champion", when he plainly and simply isn't. Same as when Hoppa was giving it the big one about fighting for "the world title" in Vegas.

That's not to detract from Green as a fighter and a man, nor to detract from his fans and their right to support him, nor from the event as a true blockbuster for Australia. This is a huge fight and I'm happy for Oz to get such a prestige event, as the commercial success of this contest can only bode well for the future of the sport there. This fight is going to be HUGE and it doesn't need bogus claims about its attached title status, or about Green's achievements, to help it along.

OK then.......fair comment. It is one of my single biggest problems with the sport as well.

In which case, would you not agree the peddling of lesser belts as legit championships for the purposes of TV is a contributing factor?

Hyping Green as a "three-weight world champion" encourages other promoters/fighters to take the IBo/interim route.

I take nothing away from Green as a former WBA champion and a current top contender in the division - and what, after all, is wrong with that, in terms of hyping the fight?

jones and green will be at the pineapple hotel in woolloongabba (brisbane) tomorrow at 12...just freaking annoyed ill be at work

adamheight wrote:jones and green will be at the pineapple hotel in woolloongabba (brisbane) tomorrow at 12...just freaking annoyed ill be at work

Sickie maybe

ben k wrote:

adamheight wrote:jones and green will be at the pineapple hotel in woolloongabba (brisbane) tomorrow at 12...just freaking annoyed ill be at work

Sickie maybe

i dont think i have any sickdays left! damn those monday morning hangovers!

Let's just leave Oliver to twist in the wind.

Brute wrote:Let's just leave Oliver to twist in the wind.

Sorry, I meant to say "modern great Danny Green will annihilate the prime Roy Jones, go on to unify the division and then clean up the heavyweight division - unless he runs into David Tua, who will by that time have beaten both Klitschkos".

Hang on, wasn't everyone (rightly) ragging on Mundine for his "IBO, baby!" exclamation? Ah, but Green is a top bloke, so that makes his IBO belt more legit, right?

FFS, I'm complaining about bogus titles, something boxing fans the world over complain about. But ooooh, I said it about an Aussie fighter, damn me!

ben k wrote:I think the IBO is gaining more respect these days, With Guys like Hatton,Klitshko, Darchinian and Pac owning there belt. Most org's are all in it for Money, You fight for a Regional belt to get ranked you pay money,You want a higher ranking you pay money, Its all down to who pays the most and who gets the higher ranking.

At least with the IBO they use there own ranking system, There is no way to buy a top 15 ranking as you don't need it challenge for the belt. Phil might be able to explain it better than me. As im not entirely sure thats how it works.

Im not here defending them im just saying they are actually trying something diffrent, And at the moment id say they have more credability than the WBA which is a dead set disgrace with its 3 champs in some divisions. All i just said does not mean i agree with all there Decisions, I just like the idea of having an independent ranking. Without Biased or Favoritism

With all due respect Ben, I laugh when I hear support of the IBO computerised ranking system. Quick question, what's the advantage of being ranked #3 over being ranked #33? Answer..nothing. So their rankings mean sweet fa in the total scheme of things. Anyone in the top 35 can challenge for a title. So why rank anyone from 1-35?

In actual fact, they don't even limit the sanctioning of title fights to top 35 guys. Try this on for size and tell me whether their computerised rankings have merit:

- Ndou v Ndou for the vacant welter belt. Ndou was ranked #27 and Philip Ndou was ranked #67 or something. Not to mention P.Ndou had two fights in the last five years.

- Danny Green wins vacant cruiser belt against Domiguez. Green had never fought at cruiser so he didn't even have a ranking! The IBO spin doctors will tell you that he had carry over points from light heavyweight. Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous. We have weight divisions for a reason. A good featherweight doesn't mean a good lightweight. But you can jump divisions in the IBO and go straight to the head of the class.

- Asiku v Ruiz for the featherweight belt in Nov. Ruiz has fought ONCE at featherweight. His opponent had a record of 1W 22L. So beating that tomato can meant Ruiz was ranked #17 in the world at featherweight. What a joke.
Asiku? Isn't rated in the IBO top 100 for whatever reason. He has a top 35 rating at super feather, I guess that's close enough :)

So their rankings mean absolutely nothing. Sure, the other orgs have their own unique problems that you mentioned. No denying that. But the IBO computerised rankings are as funny as anything else in the world of sanctioning bodies and their workings.

perfect jet wrote:

ben k wrote:I think the IBO is gaining more respect these days, With Guys like Hatton,Klitshko, Darchinian and Pac owning there belt. Most org's are all in it for Money, You fight for a Regional belt to get ranked you pay money,You want a higher ranking you pay money, Its all down to who pays the most and who gets the higher ranking.

At least with the IBO they use there own ranking system, There is no way to buy a top 15 ranking as you don't need it challenge for the belt. Phil might be able to explain it better than me. As im not entirely sure thats how it works.

Im not here defending them im just saying they are actually trying something diffrent, And at the moment id say they have more credability than the WBA which is a dead set disgrace with its 3 champs in some divisions. All i just said does not mean i agree with all there Decisions, I just like the idea of having an independent ranking. Without Biased or Favoritism

With all due respect Ben, I laugh when I hear support of the IBO computerised ranking system. Quick question, what's the advantage of being ranked #3 over being ranked #33? Answer..nothing. So their rankings mean sweet fa in the total scheme of things. Anyone in the top 35 can challenge for a title. So why rank anyone from 1-35?

In actual fact, they don't even limit the sanctioning of title fights to top 35 guys. Try this on for size and tell me whether their computerised rankings have merit:

- Ndou v Ndou for the vacant welter belt. Ndou was ranked #27 and Philip Ndou was ranked #67 or something. Not to mention P.Ndou had two fights in the last five years.

- Danny Green wins vacant cruiser belt against Domiguez. Green had never fought at cruiser so he didn't even have a ranking! The IBO spin doctors will tell you that he had carry over points from light heavyweight. Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous. We have weight divisions for a reason. A good featherweight doesn't mean a good lightweight. But you can jump divisions in the IBO and go straight to the head of the class.

- Asiku v Ruiz for the featherweight belt in Nov. Ruiz has fought ONCE at featherweight. His opponent had a record of 1W 22L. So beating that tomato can meant Ruiz was ranked #17 in the world at featherweight. What a joke.
Asiku? Isn't rated in the IBO top 100 for whatever reason. He has a top 35 rating at super feather, I guess that's close enough :)

So their rankings mean absolutely nothing. Sure, the other orgs have their own unique problems that you mentioned. No denying that. But the IBO computerised rankings are as funny as anything else in the world of sanctioning bodies and their workings.

Re read my post Perfect Jet.

And i totally agree in regatrds to them 3 fights you mentioned. Like i said im not defending there decisions. I just like the idea of not having guys buy there way into the top 15 , Like everyone else does.
At the end of the day there isnt much diffrnece between the 15th ranked guy and the 35th in most instances.

ben k wrote:And i totally agree in regatrds to them 3 fights you mentioned. Like i said im not defending there decisions. I just like the idea of not having guys buy there way into the top 15 , Like everyone else does.
At the end of the day there isnt much diffrnece between the 15th ranked guy and the 35th in most instances.

By 15th and 35th i mean take the 15th guy in the major 3 belts, Then look at the 35th on Boxrec and see who is higher ranked. You might be suprised that there is little diffrence.

Fair enough.

But when you say you think their rankings are independent and without bias or favouritism, I strongly disagree.

See, by having a melting pot of top 35, 50 or 100 fighters, or whatever the hell they use to sanction fights (supposed to be top 35 but we know thats not true)...put simply, it means the IBO committee can pick and choose what ever title fight they want. No logical system of rankings and progression, just a big melting pot. Ultimately, that means the fighters with the strongest promoters and managers behind them (who are able and willing to pay the sanctioning fees) will be advantaged. Rankings don't count for much at all.

Of course the IBF were caught selling rankings to Arum. But that was only because no matter how powerful the promoter, they still had to get their boy ranked high enough to contest a title fight.

I just find something inherently wrong with a system that finds no difference in a ranking of #2 or number #32.

perfect jet wrote:Fair enough.

But when you say you think their rankings are independent and without bias or favouritism, I strongly disagree.

See, by having a melting pot of top 35, 50 or 100 fighters, or whatever the hell they use to sanction fights (supposed to be top 35 but we know thats not true)...put simply, it means the IBO committee can pick and choose what ever title fight they want. No logical system of rankings and progression, just a big melting pot. Ultimately, that means the fighters with the strongest promoters and managers behind them (who are able and willing to pay the sanctioning fees) will be advantaged. Rankings don't count for much at all.

Of course the IBF were caught selling rankings to Arum. But that was only because no ,matter how powerful the promoter, they still had to get their boy ranked high enough to contest a title fight.

I just find something inherently wrong with a system that finds no difference in a ranking of #2 or number #32.

I see your point mate

No probs Ben. You make alot of good points and your post history here and elsewhere shows you see through alot of bs that goes on in the sport.

Its ok to say that the IBO has very little substance as an organisation but which organisation do you actually hold in high regard?? They all have their problems depending on which weight you look at, or in the way the do their general business. If Holyfield got the knod over Valuev and won the WBA heavyweight title would he be a legit 5 time heavyweight champ, although he didnt face the Klitschkos and lost to Ibragimov ?? The days of one champ in each division has been and gone so I suppose for fighters to make money they promote themselves as the WBF,WBU, IBA etc etc world champ.
Greeny held the Sup Middle title, all be it interim until Beyer came back, and he held the Lt Heavy title. He now holds a version of the Cruiser title. I say he is a 3 weight division world champ...was he the best in his division whilst holding those belts, NO (maybe Lt Heavy ??). The IBO has some worthy fighters being called world champs. Maybe they didnt fight worthy opponents to get that belt but on a world scale they are worthy champs.

amwsnw wrote:Its ok to say that the IBO has very little substance as an organisation but which organisation do you actually hold in high regard?? They all have their problems depending on which weight you look at, or in the way the do their general business. If Holyfield got the knod over Valuev and won the WBA heavyweight title would he be a legit 5 time heavyweight champ, although he didnt face the Klitschkos and lost to Ibragimov ?? The days of one champ in each division has been and gone so I suppose for fighters to make money they promote themselves as the WBF,WBU, IBA etc etc world champ.
Greeny held the Sup Middle title, all be it interim until Beyer came back, and he held the Lt Heavy title. He now holds a version of the Cruiser title. I say he is a 3 weight division world champ...was he the best in his division whilst holding those belts, NO (maybe Lt Heavy ??). The IBO has some worthy fighters being called world champs. Maybe they didnt fight worthy opponents to get that belt but on a world scale they are worthy champs.

They are all self serving corrupt organisations. But I don't think the IBF or WBC would sanction Lovemore Ndou v Philip Ndou for a world title. DD