BoxRec

I thought I would gauge the general opinion here on the Ali Liston rematch and the phantom punch as it was called. No matter how many times I watch it I can't see how that punch knocked Liston down. Yes it was fast but Ali wasn't a big puncher and it only seemed to glance Liston. Also Liston put both hands out to break his fall, would you really do that if you were concussed?

Of course we all know of Listons colourful connections and unexplained death. So do you think there was more to this fight than met the eye or do you think Liston was genuinely hurt?

The punch landed, of that I'm certain. As to the debate over whether he was hurt, if the fix was in, or if Liston quit, who knows?

Those who hate Ali say it was fixed, those who love him say it was legit.

Was the Liston vs Ali rematch fixed?

Is there any water in the Atlantic Ocean?

Granberry, there is much water in the Atlantic Ocean. Don't go round spreading rumors to the contrary.


I invite anyone to take a look a the first Ali Liston fight, watch it closely in it's entirety, granberry even you if you will watch again without prejudice and just be honest with yourself will see a man lose his will to win during the course of the fight, it's evident that he gives up along the way because he simply didn't have the cards that night. It's absolutely clear that Liston expects to win in the beginning he's sure of it, and slowy he "discovers" he simply can not do it. You can read it clearly in his eyes, facial expressions and body language. There was no fix in that fight period.

The second time for whatever reason Liston just came to pick up his check. It appears to be all about Liston's psyche. He was probably personally convinced of the outcome and chose not to take his beating IMHO.

But there is nothing more entertaining than chasing and adding fuel to a good old fashion conspiracy. But that is all it is for anyone who simply takes the time to review the tapes.

Buzz deserves his award.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=107951

The punch knocked Liston down and while he was down on the canvas contemplating his future for about 20 seconds,he gave up there.
Archie Moore had picked Cassius Clay to win the first fight then in the original rematch picked Liston to regain the title.
The original rematch was scheduled for Boston for November 1964.Reportly Liston seriously trained for this and was going through his sparring partners like crap through a goose.If you ever see footage of Liston being interiewed just before the fight was cancelled you know how focused and serious he came across.
In the mean time stories were when the bout was cancelled he started on the dope(heroin),apparently at least one of his seconds was also on it.
And it was reported when his training resumed for the Lewistone Maine fight,when he was back in training at Poland Springs,two members of nation of Islam came to visit him,they went into another room and came out with an odd defeated expression.
Thats what I read.
Not saying Liston had agreed in advance to quit,but when the fit hits the shan as Archie Moore use to say,maybe staying on the canvas would have been better for everyone involved.

First fight was legit. Second fight, was a result of Joe Walcott's shitty job as a referee.

It's sad that any fan of boxing and I come from a family where my uncle lost an eye in the ring can't at least give Ali a little credit. Whatever you think of him he showed amazing courage in the ring. That's why he is the way he is today.

Who knows what was in Liston's mind? Ali came there to fight. As to the first one he kicked Liston's ass.

HomicideHenry wrote:First fight was legit. Second fight, was a result of Joe Walcott's shitty job as a referee.

I agree. Ali begged him to get up. He was hollering " Get up, you ugly bear. They're going to think a fix is in."

Liston said he was afraid Ali was going to hit him as he was getting up ala RJJ-Montell Griffin.

He also knew he wasa going to get embarrassed so what was the point of getting up.

One of the boxrec 'experts' [and of course member of The Religion of Ali] posting above said that Liston quit in the second fake.

No--he didn't.

Thomas Hauser never told his such sycophants who parrot his talking points that

Liston got up--the fight RESUMED

and it was the "referee" [LOL] Walcott who stopped the "fight."

Such incompetence--saying Liston quit--the mantra of the Hauserites for Fake Number Two--doesn't matter when you are a devout member of the walking army of The Religion of Ali.

Keep the tired, warmed over, raw crap coming, Hauserites.

One of the geniuses posting above says that his relative lost an eye.

What system of 'logic' is it that would present that as a reason that no one should shine the light on the media created fraud, Ali?

Is that a new system of 'logic' taught in the public schools today?

"My relative lost an eye, so you better not say anything about---------------"

Or is it just another example the fine 'mind' of a member of The Religion of Ali at work?

Just like I said

Sonny Liston:

Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can't control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do but you can't tell what Ali is going to do because Ali is a nut."

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston2.htm

Nobody is denying that Joe Walcott was incompetent.

granberry wrote:One of the geniuses posting above says that his relative lost an eye.

What system of 'logic' is it that would present that as a reason that no one should shine the light on the media created fraud, Ali?

Is that a new system of 'logic' taught in the public schools today?

"My relative lost an eye, so you better not say anything about---------------"

Or is it just another example the fine 'mind' of a member of The Religion of Ali at work?

You missed my point but I have some time before I head to the gym so I can indulge you.

My point was no matter how you feel about Ali he showed courage in the ring. The same courage my uncle showed by going into back the gym after he had his detatched retina surgically repaired.

You're not shining light on the man. You are painting a twisted portrait of a man; belittling his accomplishments by lying abouty him.

TheOne will now give us "quotes" from David Remnick, the great boxing "expert."

Then some "quotes" made up by an UNNAMED Sports Illustrated writer.

Then some breathtaking "quotes" from Monte'The Thief' Cox.

And, OF COURSE, all of them will SELL SELL SELL Ali frantically and falsely.

And REMEMBER, TheOne's relative lost an eye---and that means you better not offer the slightest disagreement with him as he presents his raw Hauser Religion of Ali talking points.

granberry wrote:TheOne will now give us "quotes" from David Remnick, the great boxing "expert."

Then some "quotes" made up by an UNNAMED Sports Illustrated writer.

Then some breathtaking "quotes" from Monte'The Thief' Cox.

And, OF COURSE, all of them will SELL SELL SELL Ali frantically and falsely.

And REMEMBER, TheOne's relative lost an eye---and that means you better not offer the slightest disagreement with him as he presents his raw Hauser Religion of Ali talking points.

Is it funny to you that my uncle lost an eye in the ring? He has a real ring record unlike you that can be found on boxrec.

I supply documentary evidence to support my arguments. All your offer are illogical opinions devoid of any facts to buttrees them.

Respectfully, you have the argumentative skills of a eight year old with a learning disability.

ThatOne wrote:

granberry wrote:TheOne will now give us "quotes" from David Remnick, the great boxing "expert."

Then some "quotes" made up by an UNNAMED Sports Illustrated writer.

Then some breathtaking "quotes" from Monte'The Thief' Cox.

And, OF COURSE, all of them will SELL SELL SELL Ali frantically and falsely.

And REMEMBER, TheOne's relative lost an eye---and that means you better not offer the slightest disagreement with him as he presents his raw Hauser Religion of Ali talking points.

Is it funny to you that my uncle lost an eye in the ring? He has a real ring record unlike you that can be found on boxrec.

I supply documentary evidence to support my arguments. All your offer are illogical opinions devoid of any facts to buttrees them.

Respectfully, you have the argumentative skills of a eight year old with a learning disability.

"documentary evidence".

That is rich.

You supply crap from Ali sychophants.

Like David Remnick, exalted boxing "expert." LOL

And the UNNAMED Sports Illustrated writer who decided to make up ridiculous 'quotes' and attribute them to Zora Folley.

Keep you "documentation' coming, schoolboy.

The only thing you are 'documenting' is that you are a FRANTIC Ali shill and hard working member of The Religion of Ali.

You are obviously working overtime to take buzz' prize away from him.

granberry wrote:ANNUAL THOMAS HAUSER Award GOES TO OUR VERY OWN BUZ

Boxrec’s Buz (“I don’t have a clue what boxing is and I am a ‘moderator’ on a ‘boxing’ website, Yuk, Yuk”)

is this year’s winner of the coveted annual THOMAS HAUSER Foundation award

for the most sickening shilling for the media-created product known as “Ali.”

Buz’ credentials as a panderer for Ali include:

his classic remark that to post a photograph of Ali knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier on a ‘boxing’ website is “DEFAMATION .”

Buz has also distinguished himself by his constant remark that Ali “got up” after he was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier

as if that somehow is more important than the fact that Ali was not competent enough defensively to protect himself against Frazier’s left hook and landed flat on his back with his legs flying in the air after getting clobbered with it.

CONGRATULATIONS BUZ !


MOTTO of the THOMAS HAUSER Foundation:

“The less you know about boxing, the more you qualify to be a member of the walking army of sycophants groveling for the “Religion of Ali”

WARNING: “The Religion of Ali” is a fully protected Trademark of the THOMAS HAUSER Foundation
and may only be used by fully authorized THOMAS HAUSER Foundation agents.

I've come to the conclusion that Granberry dosen't like Muhammad Ali! I've also come to the conclusion that I don't care what he thinks.
Anyway, back to the topic. I think other posters have explained it perfectly - it was a combination of a genuine flash knockdown, Liston's reluctance (for whatever reason) to get up and Walcott's refereeing. The one thing that is for sure is that Ali wanted the fight to continue.

Mr. Granberry, I am sorry to intrude on your world where facts don't matter and the only thing that matters is one individual's view of the world. The Sonny Liston quote is from a boxing memorabilia site:

http://boxrec.com/forum/posting.php?mod ... 4&t=113177

Geraldine Liston who would know better than you unless you were sleeping with the champ doesn't think the fight was a fake:

"Was it a fix? Liston never admitted to it. His widow, Geraldine, says to this day that if it was a fix, it was a secret that Sonny took to the grave with him. And if it was a fix, Geraldine says, there was never any kind of financial payoff"

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/dunn0507.php

Should we add eastsideboxing.com and boxingmemorabilia.com to the list of Ali shills.

You should buy a copy of the book PHANTOM PUNCH by Rob Steen which is in paperback at amazon.com.
Its a reprint of the long out of print book SONNY BOY,which was only published in Britain in 1991.

Was the Liston v Ali rematch fixed?

YES 17%
No 83%
_____________________________________________

That says it all.

LOL

Boxrec is the haven for members of the Religion of Ali

who think the second Ali-Liston fake was a legitimate 'fight.'

Doesn't get any more gullible and sycophantic than that.

Grovel for your Ali, sycophants.

granberry, words mean things......

it was likely not "fixed" as in "conspiratorially so" But Walcotts incompetence and Liston's lack of enthusiasm to engage certainly made it unusual.

Substitute the word unusual for fixed and you'll get my vote.

However you are sort of a religious zealot on this issue so it's not your head that's in charge when it comes to this discussion. You're all heart on this topic.

I don't know if it was fixed, but I do know it was not a legitimate first round knockout. Liston may have gone down due to the mob, he may have gone down b/c of the Black Muslims , maybe Walcott just screwed it up. But Liston's get up and roll-over routine is the fakest thing you'll ever see in boxing . .in no way was that legit.

dempseyfire wrote:I don't know if it was fixed, but I do know it was not a legitimate first round knockout. Liston may have gone down due to the mob, he may have gone down b/c of the Black Muslims , maybe Walcott just screwed it up. But Liston's get up and roll-over routine is the fakest thing you'll ever see in boxing . .in no way was that legit.

Even though granberry doesn't believe in documentary evidence or statements of the participants we do have documentary evidence and the evidence suggests

1) There was incompetence on the part of the referee

2) If there was a fix Ali sure wasn't in on it. He was hollering for him to get up.

3) It was a flash knockdown but Liston could get up. He chose not to. As I cited he stated he was afraid to get up because he thought Ali was a nut and would hit him as he was getting up because he was in a defenseless position.

4) If there was a fix Liston didn't tell the person presumably closest to him-his wife- and she never saw the money.

Now for my opinion, he he didn't get up because he knew Ali would beat him silly, siller than he beat him the first time.

ThatOne wrote:Now for my opinion, he he didn't get up because he knew Ali would beat him silly, siller than he beat him the first time.

Brutu wrote:You should buy a copy of the book PHANTOM PUNCH by Rob Steen which is in paperback at amazon.com.
Its a reprint of the long out of print book SONNY BOY,which was only published in Britain in 1991.

What's the author's take on the fight?