Boxer vrs Wrestler/Jack Johnson to Evander Holyfield

[Brutu]

http://www.mmbolding.com/Heavyweights/B ... estler.htm

[HomicideHenry]

Goes back even further than Johnson. Sullivan fought Muldoon before a crowd in Boston once, and the fight had to be called off after Muldoon slammed Sullivan, the crowd went wild and stormed the ring. Fitzsimmons lost by submission to a graeco-roman wrestling champion too, in what many consider to be the first "mma" match. Corbett wrestled several exhibitions, and Jeffries did as well.

[Mr E]

Goes back even further than Johnson. Sullivan fought Muldoon before a crowd in Boston once, and the fight had to be called off after Muldoon slammed Sullivan, the crowd went wild and stormed the ring. Fitzsimmons lost by submission to a graeco-roman wrestling champion too, in what many consider to be the first "mma" match. Corbett wrestled several exhibitions, and Jeffries did as well.

As I understand it, Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, and Dempsey all included wrestling in their training regimens. Possibly Johnson as well. I vaguely recall hearing that Jess Willard worked with Frank Gotch but now I can't remember where I heard that...?

Jeffries wiped out a savate champ when touring France once upon a time.

Anyone know what submission the graeco-roman guy used on Fitzsimmons? That surprises me -- most London Prize Ring Rule guys learned a lot of we now consider graeco-roman technique as part of their arsenal and I would assume Fitz learned some of that too during his early career.

[HomicideHenry]

It was a standard arm bar that submitted Fitzsimmons. I imagine he was taken to the ground and the wrestler wrapped his legs around Fitz arm and pulled back on the limb. Hard hold to get out of, and one that can be very painful.

[Brutu]

When Jim Jeffries was training at Moana Springs South of Reno getting prepared to fight Jack Johnson,Jeffries had in his camp champion wrestlers William Muldoon and Martin 'Farmer' Burns.
Burns had a couple of incidents with two middlweights who dared criticised Jeffries condion or lack of,
Billy Papke reportly swung at Burns in front of a crowd of 400 and pinned Papke till he gave in.
Stanley Ketchel came to Jeffries camp cottage at Moana Springs told Jeffries he wasnt ready to fight Johnson and Jeffries had Burns pick up Ketchel and deposit him out of the compound.

[HomicideHenry]

I might also add, at one time George Foreman was challenged by Bruno Sammartino. The match, which Bruno stated was to be completely legit, never came off. Foreman, however, in later years would box a friendly bout with Hulk Hogan, where according to Hogan's autobiography Foreman took some liberty in hitting Hogan so hard that the Hulkster's legs went numb on him, though he was hit in the shoulder.

[HomicideHenry]

When Jim Jeffries was training at Moana Springs South of Reno getting prepared to fight Jack Johnson,Jeffries had in his camp champion wrestlers William Muldoon and Martin 'Farmer' Burns.
Burns had a couple of incidents with two middlweights who dared criticised Jeffries condion or lack of,
Billy Papke reportly swung at Burns in front of a crowd of 400 and pinned Papke till he gave in.
Stanley Ketchel came to Jeffries camp cottage at Moana Springs told Jeffries he wasnt ready to fight Johnson and Jeffries had Burns pick up Ketchel and deposit him out of the compound.

Ironic how things turn out. Even though Jeffries was 6 years removed from the ring and had to lose 110 pounds and get in shape for a 45 round fight, near the end of his preparations he was literally man handling his sparring partners left and right. From what I understand, though, Muldoon iritated Jeffries to no end with his repetitive 'You MUST win for the white race! You MUST!'

[Brutu]

Anyone here ever seen any of Primo Carnera's wrestling matches that were either filmed or recorded from television on kinescope or magnentic tape recording from the late 1940's to early 1960's?
Wrestling like boxing was a staple on television particularly early 1950's.
I believe he wrestled on televison several times in 1950.

[HomicideHenry]

I seen one of Carnera's matches on an old VHS tape I have called 'The Golden Age of Wrestling', guys like Rocca and Moose Cholak were on it. Carnera was a better wrestler, or showman, if you like, than as a boxer---and if i may say so, he looked happier in his new chosen profession too.

[Brutu]

there are a few of Carnera's wrestling matches on youtube.
Just wondering how many of his hundreds of matches were actually recorded,especially with Antonino Rocca.
Carnera was over 40 years old too.
Here is Primo Carnera wrestling Jim Londos in 1950

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZi5O-lyu8w

[HomicideHenry]

Funny, that before boxing Carnera was a circus strongman and wrestler, and in the end he went back to what he first started out in. I think he was more content as a wrestler than boxer, but still had his insecurities----Freddie Blassie claimed in his autobiography that when he wrestled Carnera the big guy had heard that Blassie was going to pull a shoot on him and break is leg. Blassie reassured Carnera he wasn't going to do no such thing, and their match went on without a hitch. I imagine after years of being duped in the boxing business, Carnera carried some worry with him into wrestling, hoping he wouldnt be screwed over.

[matko]

My pal jonny rocco who is a pro lightweight, who's dad is rollerball rocco the 80's wrestler and also wrestled under Black tiger and his dad was jumping jim Hussey, he has mentioned that his dad wrestled joe louis but not sure about the story??

[Brutu]

As far as I know Joe Louis only actually got into the ring as a wrestler for less then a year back in 1956,before Cowboy Rocky Lee
jumped on him when he was on the canvas and fractured some ribs that damaged his heart muscle.
Joe Louis was referring wrestling matches before that in 1954,when he sometimes as a referee he had to "knock out" a wrestler. when they went beyond the rules.
Joe Louis had referred wrestling and boxing matches(mostly wrestling) clear up until he had his stroke in 1977.
His most high profile boxing match that he refrerred was probably the second Frazier vrs Quarry fight in 1975.

[oliverfennell]

They can add Ricky Hatton-Chavo Guerrero to that list now.

And didn't Tommy Hearns, Michael Moorer and Trevor Berbick do something similar?

[HomicideHenry]

Michael Dokes was another who wrestled briefly, began before the Ruddock fight and ended when he went to prison.

[Brutu]

Did Mike Tyson ever actually wrestle?
I remember he had made some appearences on the WWF some years ago,
with a fracas with Steve Austin in the ring pushing each other back and forth.

[Brutu]

Earnie Shavers never wrestled himself but in 1980 he did become a wrestling ref,and had a schtick too were he knocked out a wrestler when they didnt obey the rules.Usually he practised the"knock out" with the wrestler in the locker room before the bout,but in his autobiography
he admits sometimes he forgot to pull the punch and it actually landedflush.

[HomicideHenry]

Nope. Tyson never wrestled. Other than "knocking out" someone and getting into a shuffle with Stone Cold Steve Austin, he never actually had a match.

Also, 'Two Ton' Tony Galento was a wrestler following his career as a fighter.

Scott LeDoux, during the AWA's hey day, was one of their premiere referees.

[Brutu]

. I vaguely recall hearing that Jess Willard worked with Frank Gotch but now I can't remember where I heard that...?

Jeffries wiped out a savate champ when touring France once upon a time.

Anyone know what submission the graeco-roman guy used on Fitzsimmons? That surprises me -- most London Prize Ring Rule guys learned a lot of we now consider graeco-roman technique as part of their arsenal and I would assume Fitz learned some of that too during his early career.

Frank Gotch had been part of Jim Jeffries training camp in Reno in 1910.
Jeffries reportly considered Gotch the best wrestler of that time.
Jeffries used Farmer Burns for pulling and hauling sessions for two rounds at a time in training.

and after Jeffries was knocked out by Johnson,Jim J. Corbett had suggested that Frank Gotch recieve some fast training to box so he could
fight Johnson.

[ben geoghegan]

Boy the bs is flying freely in this thread!

* Sullivan never fought Muldoon! This whopper has been embellished and carried on by eager fans over the years. If someone produces a newspaper report from that time and date contradicting me I will sit here with egg on my face but until then, it's virtual fantasy and should be treated as such. "From what I understand", "I heard once", "is said to have", "I would imagine". When you see these comments preface "facts", is folly not scholarship. When you are making a guess, identify it as such.
* Sullivan was a total novice at wrestling at the time of the Kilrain fight though Muldoon did train him in wrestling. But not greco since it was useless for prizefighting.
* Greco-roman wrestling had nothing to do with LPR. LPR predates greco in England by over a hundred years. The few wrestling techniques prizefighters used were from Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling. Read the old books and you will see that there wasn't as much wrestling in LPR as people suppose today because of the early Queensberry film. A prizefighter couldn't wrestle a man in LPR because he was at risk of being thrown so he had to be wary. Boxers couldn't chip or buttock in Queensberry so holding became more prevalent.
* Muldoon wasn't in Jeffries camp in any training capacity, he was only a visitor.
* Gotch wasn't in Jeffries camp in any functional capacity.
* There was no significant challenge between Foreman and Bruno Sammartino. But Sammartino did spar with Sonny Liston once in New York when he was young and Liston was the champ and he took a beating.

[BoxBuzz]

Boy the bs is flying freely in this thread!

* Sullivan never fought Muldoon! This whopper has been embellished and carried on by eager fans over the years. If someone produces a newspaper report from that time and date contradicting me I will sit here with egg on my face but until then, it's virtual fantasy and should be treated as such. "From what I understand", "I heard once", "is said to have", "I would imagine". When you see these comments preface "facts", is folly not scholarship. When you are making a guess, identify it as such.
* Sullivan was a total novice at wrestling at the time of the Kilrain fight though Muldoon did train him in wrestling. But not greco since it was useless for prizefighting.
* Greco-roman wrestling had nothing to do with LPR. LPR predates greco in England by over a hundred years. The few wrestling techniques prizefighters used were from Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling. Read the old books and you will see that there wasn't as much wrestling in LPR as people suppose today because of the early Queensberry film. A prizefighter couldn't wrestle a man in LPR because he was at risk of being thrown so he had to be wary. Boxers couldn't chip or buttock in Queensberry so holding became more prevalent.
* Muldoon wasn't in Jeffries camp in any training capacity, he was only a visitor.
* Gotch wasn't in Jeffries camp in any functional capacity.
* There was no significant challenge between Foreman and Bruno Sammartino. But Sammartino did spar with Sonny Liston once in New York when he was young and Liston was the champ and he took a beating.

Ben, The Muldoon/Sullivan connection is told most credibly and becomes more believable after the third pint. Try reading it sober, and sure enough it's garbage, but knock a few back, and Voila! It has all the "feel" of accurate reporting. Some "truths" simply do not pass the sobriety test. This is not to say that it is a "lie". To use such vulgar language would be to call a spade a spade, and is no longer considered good form

Let's say it is "nourishment for semi fictional docu-drama....that we not offend anyone.


Liars er uh I mean "Fictionalists" are people too Ben.....and should not be treated disrespectfully....

[Brutu]

I only get what was reported in contemporary newspapers of the time.
It was announced in a December.29.1909 paper that Frank Gotch along with another wrestler Dr.B.F Roller.
would be part of his training camp.
Maybe Gotch only trained with Jeffries in early 1910 when the fight was still slated for San Francisco?

[Brutu]

Ive never heard of Muldoon fighting John L. Sullivan in a ring anyway,however I have heard accounts of John L. Sullivan being drunk and starting fights with various people and ended up on the losing end.
Reportly he was drunk when he went to see his friend William Hogarty who owned a barber shop in Boston,called him all kind of names and the barber hit Sullivan over the head with a pitcher full of water knocking him out.
Perhaps Sullivan and Muldoon had a similiar encounter.

[Brutu]

I have read accounts of Jack Johnson doing wrestling exhibitions long before he ever went to Europe.
Almost as if it was a second career as a wrestler when he wasnt boxing to make money.
Has anyone ever compiled a career of Johnson's various wrestling bouts?
I know he did a number of them after he was released from Leavenworth,particularly because prizefighting had been outlawed in Illinois
in the 1920's.

[Mr E]

Greco-roman wrestling had nothing to do with LPR. LPR predates greco in England by over a hundred years. The few wrestling techniques prizefighters used were from Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling. Read the old books and you will see that there wasn't as much wrestling in LPR as people suppose today because of the early Queensberry film. A prizefighter couldn't wrestle a man in LPR because he was at risk of being thrown so he had to be wary. Boxers couldn't chip or buttock in Queensberry so holding became more prevalent.

What I wrote was that fighters used a lot of what we NOW call 'greco-roman technique,' which absolutely includes throws from standing position, many of which throws, among other things, were taught and practiced among LPR particpants. After all, why would one be "at risk of being thrown" if his opponent were not trying to throw him? In any case, what I've read about LPR bouts suggests to me that some (though not all) of the technique that is now being practiced in greco-roman bouts today was also being practiced in LPR bouts 200 years ago.