Mike Tyson, The Amateur, Versus, The Pros
Posted: 18 Dec 2009, 04:29
Controversial and ThatOne, in the midst of the Johansson/Clay debate(s), often brought up the hypothetical scenario as to whether the amateur Mike Tyson could have handled himself against capable pros in four and ten round bouts [ie, Tyson/Williams was one such example].
Originally my position was that the amateur Tyson, who struggled with Henry Tillman, wouldn't have been able to handle himself against the top 25 HW's of that time regardless of the scheduled round length. ThatOne, I believe, based his argument on Tyson's power, that certainly the 18 year old Tyson fresh out of the amateurs could have kayoed the undefeated Carl Williams who was then 11-0, like he did when the two met in 1989.
With the HW top ten consisting of the likes of Larry Holmes, Greg Page, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, and others, it seemed like a 'no-brainer' to judge that a raw Tyson in his pro debut would have been man-handled by such men---however, I got to thinking about it, and dived in and did some research, and changed my opinion a little bit on the scenario of Tyson against a seasoned pro in his debut.
Probably one of the earliest indications to lean towards the idea that Tyson could have defeated a seasoned pro in his debut comes from the training habits that were instilled into him from Teddy Atlas and Cus D'Amato. Cus didn't train Tyson for the amateurs, though Mike would compete in several amateur competitions and would knock out many of the top Junior and Senior competitors from 1981-1984.
D'Amato's style for Tyson was more suited to the professional system of boxing, to be 'exciting', to inflict damage without being on the receiving end, to knock out opponents rather than score points---some of Tyson's losses in the amateurs wasn't because Tyson was inferior to his opponents, but because the rules are so vastly different [a knockdown is worth a point, a single jab from the knocked down opponent can make the fight even again].
Tyson sparred reguarly with welterweights and middleweights to build up his speed and defense, but he also was put in with actual professional boxers on occasion. One such instance was when Tyson was 16 years old, and his "opponent" was Frank Bruno, who was at the time 22 years of age. Bruno, at the time, was the youngest heavyweight British amateur champion in history and was to embark on a pro career. D'Amato asked Frank Duffy to have Bruno spar with Mike, and Duffy obliged. The result was a two round sparring session with Tyson emurging the 'victor' over the more experienced Bruno.
Duffy, of course, claims that Cus had asked Bruno to take it easy on Mike, and that Tyson came at Bruno full force---however the story has a loop hole, considering a seasoned amateur about to turn pro certainly would have been able to handle a 16 year old who was still competing in the Junior division. Bruno would turn pro in 1982 and would go 21-0-0 with 21 kayos before losing.
Another instance in Tyson's life goes back even further, when the boy was 13 and began getting trained by Bobby Stewart, a successful amateur and pro who defeated the likes of Michael Dokes in the amateurs. He was the one who introduced Tyson to D'Amato. To impress Cus, Stewart and Mike sparred two rounds. Though Stewart didn't admit it then, he would later say that the 13 year old Tyson's body punches were tremendous, almost breaking his ribs. Stewart had to use his vast experience to keep Tyson, again only 13 years old and no amateur bouts, off of him. D'Amato became a Tyson fan immediately after what he saw.
Rumors throughout the years have also mentioned encounters with Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Holyfield certainly never sparred the rising heavyweight amateur, though they met several times in passing through the several tournaments staged throughout the country during that time. Lewis, on the other hand, did in fact spar Tyson from time to time, though it is not clear as to whether or not Tyson was superior to Lewis and vice versa, though both men have made their claims to have thrashed eachother.
Among Tyson's sparring partners during his years at Catskill, New York were heavyweights "Big" Joe Egan (Irish Heavyweight amateur champion), Nate Tubbs, and Jose Ribalta. Tyson would later fight Ribalta as a professional, knocking him out in the 10th round. Clearly, this wasn't just an amateur stand-out. Mike Tyson, even then, was being groomed for one singular purpose: to become the most fierce and dominate heavyweight in the world. His sparring partners, his training style, was all meant for someone who was professional. From 13-17, Mike Tyson was just that, a professional.
The hapless rabble of victims of 1985, certainly, would have been anihilated by the same Tyson who slapped Egan from pillar to post. For the most part, the early 1986 roster that Tyson mowed through, would have as well. Therein lies the problem---where's the cutting off point? Would Tyson have had problematic issues with Jesse Ferguson, James Tillis, Mitch Green, and Jose Ribalta anyways?
IMHO, when I really reflect on this, I hate to say it, I have to agree with ThatOne on this. Tyson, even as a pro debut, would have ultimately kayoed the 11-0 Carl Williams. Maybe not in the first round as he did in 1989, but eventually he would have. I'll go as far as to say, had he been groomed to take on Berbick in 1985 from the start---its plausible that Tyson could have handled himself against him in a four, six, or even eight round bout. As I stated before, from the start Tyson was trained like a professional from one of boxing's greatest minds, he wouldn't have been a mere opponent for Berbick, not with D'Amato behind the muscle; if anyone could have pulled such an upset off, it would have been the original Team Tyson.
Originally my position was that the amateur Tyson, who struggled with Henry Tillman, wouldn't have been able to handle himself against the top 25 HW's of that time regardless of the scheduled round length. ThatOne, I believe, based his argument on Tyson's power, that certainly the 18 year old Tyson fresh out of the amateurs could have kayoed the undefeated Carl Williams who was then 11-0, like he did when the two met in 1989.
With the HW top ten consisting of the likes of Larry Holmes, Greg Page, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, and others, it seemed like a 'no-brainer' to judge that a raw Tyson in his pro debut would have been man-handled by such men---however, I got to thinking about it, and dived in and did some research, and changed my opinion a little bit on the scenario of Tyson against a seasoned pro in his debut.
Probably one of the earliest indications to lean towards the idea that Tyson could have defeated a seasoned pro in his debut comes from the training habits that were instilled into him from Teddy Atlas and Cus D'Amato. Cus didn't train Tyson for the amateurs, though Mike would compete in several amateur competitions and would knock out many of the top Junior and Senior competitors from 1981-1984.
D'Amato's style for Tyson was more suited to the professional system of boxing, to be 'exciting', to inflict damage without being on the receiving end, to knock out opponents rather than score points---some of Tyson's losses in the amateurs wasn't because Tyson was inferior to his opponents, but because the rules are so vastly different [a knockdown is worth a point, a single jab from the knocked down opponent can make the fight even again].
Tyson sparred reguarly with welterweights and middleweights to build up his speed and defense, but he also was put in with actual professional boxers on occasion. One such instance was when Tyson was 16 years old, and his "opponent" was Frank Bruno, who was at the time 22 years of age. Bruno, at the time, was the youngest heavyweight British amateur champion in history and was to embark on a pro career. D'Amato asked Frank Duffy to have Bruno spar with Mike, and Duffy obliged. The result was a two round sparring session with Tyson emurging the 'victor' over the more experienced Bruno.
Duffy, of course, claims that Cus had asked Bruno to take it easy on Mike, and that Tyson came at Bruno full force---however the story has a loop hole, considering a seasoned amateur about to turn pro certainly would have been able to handle a 16 year old who was still competing in the Junior division. Bruno would turn pro in 1982 and would go 21-0-0 with 21 kayos before losing.
Another instance in Tyson's life goes back even further, when the boy was 13 and began getting trained by Bobby Stewart, a successful amateur and pro who defeated the likes of Michael Dokes in the amateurs. He was the one who introduced Tyson to D'Amato. To impress Cus, Stewart and Mike sparred two rounds. Though Stewart didn't admit it then, he would later say that the 13 year old Tyson's body punches were tremendous, almost breaking his ribs. Stewart had to use his vast experience to keep Tyson, again only 13 years old and no amateur bouts, off of him. D'Amato became a Tyson fan immediately after what he saw.
Rumors throughout the years have also mentioned encounters with Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Holyfield certainly never sparred the rising heavyweight amateur, though they met several times in passing through the several tournaments staged throughout the country during that time. Lewis, on the other hand, did in fact spar Tyson from time to time, though it is not clear as to whether or not Tyson was superior to Lewis and vice versa, though both men have made their claims to have thrashed eachother.
Among Tyson's sparring partners during his years at Catskill, New York were heavyweights "Big" Joe Egan (Irish Heavyweight amateur champion), Nate Tubbs, and Jose Ribalta. Tyson would later fight Ribalta as a professional, knocking him out in the 10th round. Clearly, this wasn't just an amateur stand-out. Mike Tyson, even then, was being groomed for one singular purpose: to become the most fierce and dominate heavyweight in the world. His sparring partners, his training style, was all meant for someone who was professional. From 13-17, Mike Tyson was just that, a professional.
The hapless rabble of victims of 1985, certainly, would have been anihilated by the same Tyson who slapped Egan from pillar to post. For the most part, the early 1986 roster that Tyson mowed through, would have as well. Therein lies the problem---where's the cutting off point? Would Tyson have had problematic issues with Jesse Ferguson, James Tillis, Mitch Green, and Jose Ribalta anyways?
IMHO, when I really reflect on this, I hate to say it, I have to agree with ThatOne on this. Tyson, even as a pro debut, would have ultimately kayoed the 11-0 Carl Williams. Maybe not in the first round as he did in 1989, but eventually he would have. I'll go as far as to say, had he been groomed to take on Berbick in 1985 from the start---its plausible that Tyson could have handled himself against him in a four, six, or even eight round bout. As I stated before, from the start Tyson was trained like a professional from one of boxing's greatest minds, he wouldn't have been a mere opponent for Berbick, not with D'Amato behind the muscle; if anyone could have pulled such an upset off, it would have been the original Team Tyson.
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