BoxRec

Here's how it works. Eight of the greatest (not necessarily the top eight, but eight top guys, nonetheless) compete in a league tournament. Each man faces everyone else twice over, & then, we proceed to the finals. All fights are twelve-rounds, except for the Grand Final, which takes place over fifteen. Here's the League System Set-up...

Win = 2 Pts.
Draw = 1 Pt.
Loss = 0 Pts.

No extras for beating your man inside the distance, as is sometimes the case with these things, because that's plainly biased in favour of heavier hitters & more aggressive fighters.

The Combatants...

Jack Dempsey (62-6-9, 51 KO's)
George Foreman (76-5-0, 68 KO's)
Joe Frazier (32-4-1, 27 KO's)
Larry Holmes (69-6-0, 44 KO's)
Evander Holyfield (42-10-2, 27 KO's)
Lennox Lewis (41-2-1, 32 KO's)
Sonny Liston (50-4-0, 38 KO's)
Mike Tyson (50-6-0, 44 KO's)

Note the omission of two sparkling names. They're taking a break for a change. Maybe they'll do some colour commentary during the competition :)

Here's how I saw it...

Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Tyson KO5 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Liston (Liston KO4 Foreman)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Frazier)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey TKO7 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO4 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Tyson SD12 Holyfield)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO10 Liston)

Round 3:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman KO3 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO4 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Holmes MD12 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Holyfield SD12 Lewis)

Round 4:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Dempsey TKO6 Holyfield)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Tyson KO3 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO3 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO5 Frazier)

Round 5:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Dempsey TKO4 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Holyfield MD12 Liston)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Tyson KO2 Lewis)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes UD12 Foreman)

Round 6:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Dempsey KO5 Liston)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO4 Holyfield)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes UD12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Tyson TKO3 Frazier)

Round 7:

Dempsey vs Lewis (Lewis TKO8 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Holyfield SD12 Frazier)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO3 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Liston)

Round 8:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey KO4 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman TKO4 Liston)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Frazier TKO12 Lewis)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 9:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO2 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield UD12 Tyson)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston KO5 Lewis)

Round 10:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO3 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO3 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Frazier TKO12 Holmes)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Lewis MD12 Holyfield)

Round 11:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Holyfield SD12 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Holmes TKO11 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO2 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO4 Frazier)

Round 12:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Frazier UD12 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Liston TKO8 Holyfield)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Tyson KO4 Lewis)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Foreman KO4 Holmes)

Round 13:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Liston TKO4 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO5 Holyfield)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes D12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Tyson TKO4 Frazier)

Round 14:

Dempsey vs. Lewis (Dempsey KO3 Lewis)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier UD12 Holyfield)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO3 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Liston TKO4 Holmes)

League Standings...

1. Foreman (12-2-0, 12 KO's 24 Pts.)
2. Liston (9-5-0, 9 KO's 18 Pts.)
3. Holmes (8-5-1, 1 KO 17 Pts.)
4. Tyson (7-7-0, 6 KO's 14 Pts.)

5. Dempsey (6-8-0, 6 KO's 12 Pts.)
6. Holyfield (5-9-0, 0 KO's 10 Pts.)
7. Lewis (4-9-1, 2 KO's 9 Pts.)
8. Frazier (4-10-0, 2 KO's 8 Pts.)

At the conclusion of the season-proper, 1 vs. 2, & 3 vs. 4. The winner of 1-2 advances instantly to the Grand Final, while the loser awaits Sudden Death against the winner of 3-4. The loser of 3-4 is ousted.

Preliminary Finals:

Foreman vs. Liston (Liston KO3 Foreman)
Holmes vs. Tyson (Holmes UD12 Tyson)

Sudden Death:

Foreman vs. Holmes (Holmes TKO12 Foreman)

Grand Final:

Liston TKO5 Holmes

Champion: From St. Louis, USA, "The Night Train," Sonnnnnyyyyyy Liiiiisssstooonnnnn!!!

What Louis Said...

"Some unforgettable fights. Sonny's a great friend of mine, & it's wonderful to see him win it. I really thought he was gone in two fights --- the second match with Dempsey, when he was down twice in the second round --- especially considering Jack had won their first meet. He dug deep though, proved his heart. Same thing with the second Holyfield fight. He lost the first, & it seemed to be slipping from his grasp again, but he got it done. He's a good boy, with the best jab I ever saw. One thing, though. The second Lewis-Holmes fight, the draw...that should've been a win for Lennox. Holmes was pretty sluggish in the later rounds. That result should have gone against him.

I don't know what to say about George. He steamrolled the League, but couldn't finish. I spoke to him between his last League fight, & the opening semi, against Liston. He seemed in a good headspace. He really fell away, I guess. I didn't see it coming."

What Ali Said...

"Hey, at least Joe didn't win it, right? I'm kidding...there were some bad match-ups here for Joe. I feel sorry for him, I really thought he had that first fight with Larry won. He shoulda got the decision in that, & I feel for George, too --- he seemed to have it in the bag when the Finals came 'round, but he dropped the ball. Have to say, I never, ever thought seriously Sonny would win it. Even when he reached the Grand Final, & having beaten Larry once from two, I didn't think he'd do it. I thought George or Lennox would pick him off before the decider, &, when that didn't happen, I figured Larry had him beat, if he just went back to what worked for him in their first fight --- lots of footwork, & the higher jab count. I thought Sonny only got him in the rematch 'cause he got lazy with his jab, but it didn't work out in the big one. Sonny jumped on him, & you gotsta give him the credit for that.

I did think the best fight of the whole thing was the second Dempsey-Liston fight. Sonny down twice in the second round, comes back, staggers Jack in the third, then gets him out of there in the fourth. It was the best fight of the whole Tournament."

Tournament Awards... (As voted by the Boxing Writers' Association of America)

Fight Of The Tournament: Holyfield-Frazier I, Round 7 (Holyfield SD12 Frazier)

Round Of The Tournament: Round 1, Foreman-Dempsey I, Round 1 (Each man wobbled twice, Dempsey down for a two-count)

KO Of The Tournament: Liston-Dempsey II, Round 13 (Liston smashed Dempsey into the ropes with a herculean right hand, & then pummeled him to the TKO)

Comeback Of The Tournament: Liston-Dempsey II, Round 13 (Liston down twice in round two, shakes Dempsey in the third, & TKO's him in the fourth in electric fashion)

Upset Of The Tournament: Tyson-Holyfield I, Round 2 (Tyson started fast, scoring a flash knockdown, & finished the last two rounds with surprising endurance to win a tight, disputed decision)

Cripes this will take a long time, I have to look it up in the akashik record and it's time consuming. Here are the real results.


Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey TKO 3)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman TKO 9)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Frazier KO 9)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes TKO 7)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey SD 10)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman KO3)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Tyson KO5)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston UD 10)

BoxBuzz wrote:Cripes this will take a long time, I have to look it up in the akashik record and it's time consuming. Here are the real results.


Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey TKO 3)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman TKO 9)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Frazier KO 9)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes TKO 7)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey SD 10)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman KO3)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Tyson KO5)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston UD 10)

Yeah, I kind of bit off more than I could chew, but decided I had to finish it off in the end

Maybe others could just post who they'd expect to see in the Finals Series...

Here's my take:

Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Tyson KO4 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Liston (Liston KO8 Foreman)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO9 Frazier)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey SD12 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO3 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield TKO12 Tyson)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston TKO2 Lewis)

Round 3:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman KO5 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO8 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Frazier MD12 Holmes)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Holyfield)

Round 4:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Holyfield UD12 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Tyson TKO5 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO3 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO6 Frazier)

Round 5:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Dempsey TKO8 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Liston UD12 Holyfield)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Lewis KO8 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes UD12 Foreman)

Round 6:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Liston UD12 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO6 Holyfield)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes UD12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Tyson TKO5 Frazier)

Round 7:

Dempsey vs Lewis (Lewis UD12 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier UD12 Holyfield)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO5 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Liston)

Round 8:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey KO7 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman TKO6 Liston)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Frazier)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 9:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO5 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield TKO11 Tyson)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO7 Liston)

Round 10:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO4 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO4 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Holmes UD12 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Holyfield SD12 Lewis)

Round 11:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Holyfield UD12 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Holmes TKO10 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO8 Foreman)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO7 Frazier)

Round 12:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Frazier TKO9 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Holyfield MD12 Liston)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Lewis KO6 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes TKO10 Foreman)

Round 13:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Liston TKO6 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Holyfield SD12 Foreman)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes MD12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Frazier TKO10 Tyson)

Round 14:

Dempsey vs. Lewis (Lewis KO8 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier D12 Holyfield)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO4 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Liston)

League Standings...

1. Holmes (11-3-0, 2KO, 22pts)
2. Foreman (9-5-0, 9KO, 18pts)
3. Liston (9-5-0, 7KO, 18pts)
4. Lewis (9-5-0, 6KO, 18pts)
5. Holyfield (7-7-0, 2KO, 14 pts)
6. Frazier (5-9-0, 2KO, 10pts)
7. Tyson (3-11-0, 3KO, 6pts)
8. Dempsey (3-11-0, 2KO, 6 pts)


At the conclusion of the season-proper, 1 vs. 2, & 3 vs. 4. The winner of 1-2 advances instantly to the Grand Final, while the loser awaits Sudden Death against the winner of 3-4. The loser of 3-4 is ousted.

Preliminary Finals:

Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes UD12 Foreman)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Liston)

Sudden Death:

Foreman vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Foreman)

Grand Final:

Holmes UD15 Lewis

I see Lewis giving Holmes the most trouble in this one.

jezzamundo wrote:Here's my take:

Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Tyson KO4 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Liston (Liston KO8 Foreman)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO9 Frazier)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey SD12 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO3 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield TKO12 Tyson)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston TKO2 Lewis)

Round 3:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman KO5 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO8 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Frazier MD12 Holmes)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Holyfield)

Round 4:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Holyfield UD12 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Tyson TKO5 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO3 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO6 Frazier)

Round 5:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Dempsey TKO8 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Liston UD12 Holyfield)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Lewis KO8 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes UD12 Foreman)

Round 6:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Liston UD12 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO6 Holyfield)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes UD12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Tyson TKO5 Frazier)

Round 7:

Dempsey vs Lewis (Lewis UD12 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier UD12 Holyfield)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO5 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Liston)

Round 8:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey KO7 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman TKO6 Liston)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Frazier)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes UD12 Holyfield)

Round 9:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Dempsey)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO5 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield TKO11 Tyson)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO7 Liston)

Round 10:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO4 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston KO4 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Holmes UD12 Frazier)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Holyfield SD12 Lewis)

Round 11:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Holyfield UD12 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Holmes TKO10 Tyson)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Lewis TKO8 Foreman)
Liston vs. Frazier (Liston TKO7 Frazier)

Round 12:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Frazier TKO9 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Holyfield MD12 Liston)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Lewis KO6 Tyson)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes TKO10 Foreman)

Round 13:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Liston TKO6 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Holyfield SD12 Foreman)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes MD12 Lewis)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Frazier TKO10 Tyson)

Round 14:

Dempsey vs. Lewis (Lewis KO8 Dempsey)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier D12 Holyfield)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO4 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes UD12 Liston)

League Standings...

1. Holmes (11-3-0, 2KO, 22pts)
2. Foreman (9-5-0, 9KO, 18pts)
3. Liston (9-5-0, 7KO, 18pts)
4. Lewis (9-5-0, 6KO, 18pts)
5. Holyfield (7-7-0, 2KO, 14 pts)
6. Frazier (5-9-0, 2KO, 10pts)
7. Tyson (3-11-0, 3KO, 6pts)
8. Dempsey (3-11-0, 2KO, 6 pts)


At the conclusion of the season-proper, 1 vs. 2, & 3 vs. 4. The winner of 1-2 advances instantly to the Grand Final, while the loser awaits Sudden Death against the winner of 3-4. The loser of 3-4 is ousted.

Preliminary Finals:

Holmes vs. Foreman (Holmes UD12 Foreman)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Liston)

Sudden Death:

Foreman vs. Lewis (Lewis UD12 Foreman)

Grand Final:

Holmes UD15 Lewis

Great read, & I knew, given your passion for the Heavies, you'd be along.

Good show

Fun stuff. Personally, I like the Mauler to win it all and then snarl into the mike, "Where in the Hell were Louis and Ali? I've got a left hook here with each of their names on it."

Mr E wrote:Fun stuff. Personally, I like the Mauler to win it all and then snarl into the mike, "Where in the Hell were Louis and Ali? I've got a left hook here with each of their names on it."

Unlike most here, I wouldn't count Dempsey out. I still class him as an outsider, though. For some reason, I've always had trouble literally envisioning him & Liston in a ring together & how they'd mesh, so I decided to split their results during the League.

I wont get into this too much, but imo, it all comes down to Liston/Holmes in the end. Liston would have beaten Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey. Holmes would have beaten Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson. In the end, I think Holmes wins over Liston.

HomicideHenry wrote:I wont get into this too much, but imo, it all comes down to Liston/Holmes in the end. Liston would have beaten Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey. Holmes would have beaten Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson. In the end, I think Holmes wins over Liston.

I had him taking one from three against Liston, & losing the decider. Like Holmes-Foreman, a Holmes-Liston fight is one I could be persuaded either way on at any given minute.

Why the narrow edge to Liston? Holmes hated anyone who jabbed with him, &, in his most vivid nightmares, he never met a left-hand like Liston's.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Mr E wrote:Fun stuff. Personally, I like the Mauler to win it all and then snarl into the mike, "Where in the Hell were Louis and Ali? I've got a left hook here with each of their names on it."

Unlike most here, I wouldn't count Dempsey out. I still class him as an outsider, though. For some reason, I've always had trouble literally envisioning him & Liston in a ring together & how they'd mesh, so I decided to split their results during the League.

IMO, Liston did not have the pride, heart, or fundamental will to win to beat a guy like Dempsey.

I never understood why Duran gets a pass for his 'no mas' vs Leonard but the Clay fights forever turn Liston into a guy with 'no heart or will' . . .

Dempsey was unquestionably the gutsier fighter of the two, but Liston's heart has got to be the most under-rated attribute in Boxing history.

The opinion of it is so low, I don't think any myth could be more severely misconstrued. Liston had heart. Maybe not as much as Dempsey, but it's complete bullsh!t when people say he had none. He also had something Dempsey didn't like --- a brilliant, brilliant jab.

Liston had advantages in reach, weight, strength, possibly chin & punching power, & his weakest hand (the right) was more punishing than Dempsey's weakest hand (the right), although both were good two-handed hitters. They each had good, sturdy chins, & first-class killer instinct.

Dempsey was quicker, more nimble, & had the better reflexes. He was also quicker at effecting his assault from the opening bell, & even more aggressive than was Liston. On the other hand, Liston had a fight-taming jab & a not-mentioned-enough left hook which came off it.

It might just be who lands first, here. In that regard, Liston has the reach, but Dempsey is quicker to the mark. Question of whether Dempsey can negotiate the jab & penetrate the necessary real estate, IMO.

dempseyfire wrote:I never understood why Duran gets a pass for his 'no mas' vs Leonard but the Clay fights forever turn Liston into a guy with 'no heart or will' . . .

People love Duran. They hate Liston.

dempseyfire wrote:I never understood why Duran gets a pass for his 'no mas' vs Leonard but the Clay fights forever turn Liston into a guy with 'no heart or will' . . .

Liston never won a tough fight in his life. Closest he came was taking some shots from Cleveland Williams in the 2nd round of their first fight but one could hardly call that a heroic effort. He'd beat most of the heavyweights who ever lived on sheer talent but I think 5 rounds with the Mauler and he'd be looking for a place to hide.

Just my humble opinion, gentlemen, but I think the effort not to under-rate Liston has swung far too severely in the other direction.

Mr E wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I never understood why Duran gets a pass for his 'no mas' vs Leonard but the Clay fights forever turn Liston into a guy with 'no heart or will' . . .

Liston never won a tough fight in his life. Closest he came was taking some shots from Cleveland Williams in the 2nd round of their first fight but one could hardly call that a heroic effort. He'd beat most of the heavyweights who ever lived on sheer talent but I think 5 rounds with the Mauler and he'd be looking for a place to hide.

Just my humble opinion, gentlemen, but I think the effort not to under-rate Liston has swung far too severely in the other direction.

Folley gave him problems until he fell, Machen a very clever defensive specialist with some power gave him problems but Liston stayed very discipline for the decision win, and Williams in both fights landed some bombs on Sonny before Sonny came back. Liston vs an all-time great in Ali retires with a legit shoulder injury, but Vitali does the same thing and is completly forgiven simply because he fought with cuts vs Lewis, which really doesn't mean much as cuts don't hurt much during fighting and it's not like Vitali had a mirror handy to see how messed up the cut really was.


Seems like Liston just gets a double standard.

dempseyfire wrote:

Mr E wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I never understood why Duran gets a pass for his 'no mas' vs Leonard but the Clay fights forever turn Liston into a guy with 'no heart or will' . . .

Liston never won a tough fight in his life. Closest he came was taking some shots from Cleveland Williams in the 2nd round of their first fight but one could hardly call that a heroic effort. He'd beat most of the heavyweights who ever lived on sheer talent but I think 5 rounds with the Mauler and he'd be looking for a place to hide.

Just my humble opinion, gentlemen, but I think the effort not to under-rate Liston has swung far too severely in the other direction.

Folley gave him problems until he fell, Machen a very clever defensive specialist with some power gave him problems but Liston stayed very discipline for the decision win, and Williams in both fights landed some bombs on Sonny before Sonny came back. Liston vs an all-time great in Ali retires with a legit shoulder injury, but Vitali does the same thing and is completly forgiven simply because he fought with cuts vs Lewis, which really doesn't mean much as cuts don't hurt much during fighting and it's not like Vitali had a mirror handy to see how messed up the cut really was.


Seems like Liston just gets a double standard.

I put it to you that there was not a single second in either the Folley or Machen fights in which the outcome was in doubt, nor did either of them come within a mile of hurting Liston at all.

Legitimate shoulder injury, come on. As I recall, Sonny used to get mixed up later in life whether it was a shoulder or a bicep or both he supposedly hurt. The way I see it, he got his tail completely and thoroughly waxed, he didn't like losing to Clay of all people, so he up and quit. Simple as that.

Duran quit too but he had enough gutsy performances over the course of his career that my guess is that the Leonard rematch was an aberration. With Liston, that's not the case.

Also, I continue to hold Quitschko's surrender against him, the Lewis bout ameliorates the impact on his career but does not cancel it, at least in my opinion.

No one --- fuckin' no one --- ever bashed Liston into submission, which is the order required of Dempsey.

I could pick either man, but if this fight happened, & you gave me odds which reflect your confidence here, Mr. E, I'd jump on it --- & this, from a man so disinterested in the concept of gambling, I didn't even do any in Vegas.

Liston has every chance against Dempsey, & vice-versa. If the going got tough, I think you might be quite surprised at what Liston was made of. I wouldn't say he was as out-right tough as Dempsey, but he could take it.

I don't really think Dempsey would fare to well against any of these guys.

A lot of good matches here though, but I think after about 3 rounds of the tourney they'd wanna replace Dempsey with somebody else, upon realizing, he's outclassed in this league. Tyson vs Liston would be a barnburner.

Frazier vs Holyfield, would be great also.

Fascinating tourney though

boxing_fanatic_87 wrote:I don't really think Dempsey would fare to well against any of these guys.

A lot of good matches here though, but I think after about 3 rounds of the tourney they'd wanna replace Dempsey with somebody else, upon realizing, he's outclassed in this league. Tyson vs Liston would be a barnburner.

Frazier vs Holyfield, would be great also.

Fascinating tourney though

Well, it's interesting how perceptions can be formed. I really wouldn't count him out against anyone, because of his power. I'd be very confident he'd lose to Foreman, but I basically tried to present the results based on odds --- I think Dempsey has a legitimately good shot at beating all men here, save the aforementioned Foreman, but I think everyone here has a good shot to beat Dempsey, too --- that's why you'll see in the results listed, Dempsey won & lost one fight each with most guys in the tournament.

I don't think he's out of his depth, but I would be surprised if he won the whole thing.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No one --- fuckin' no one --- ever bashed Liston into submission, which is the order required of Dempsey.

I respectfully submit that I disagree on both counts. I suppose it depends to a certain degree on what you mean when you write "bashed Liston into submission," but, the way I see it, Ali bashed him into literal submission, specifically quiting cold, in the first fight and Leotis Martin bashed him into submission, specifically out cold, in their fight. Other than that, who really "bashed" him at all? Cleveland Williams nailed him a couple good ones in the 2nd round of their first fight but couldn't respond after a little give and take. Other than that...? On the other point, I do not believe Dempsey would need to win by KO; IMO, he is perfectly capable of out-hustling and out-quicking Liston over the distance and winning on points, as I think over the course of a fight, Sonny would wind down more quickly than Jack would.

I could pick either man, but if this fight happened, & you gave me odds which reflect your confidence here, Mr. E, I'd jump on it --- & this, from a man so disinterested in the concept of gambling, I didn't even do any in Vegas.

I too regret that we could not bet this fight.

Liston has every chance against Dempsey, & vice-versa. If the going got tough, I think you might be quite surprised at what Liston was made of. I wouldn't say he was as out-right tough as Dempsey, but he could take it.

Oh, I do not question Liston's chin -- he could take a helluva shot. I only question his heart, which I think I value higher in evaluating fighters than you do.

As I've said before, though, who the Hell knows about these things? I'd bet on Dempsey but would I bet my mortgage? Noooooooo.

Liston would never KO Foreman.

But Foreman would KO him everytime!