Sounds like those Judges have got it all wrong again!
It looks like Oquendo has got shafted out of the IBF title by some blind judges.
I haven't seen the fight, but by all accounts Oquendo won - even Byrd has suggested as much (read ITV teletext).
When will they learn?
* I have seen Oquendo a few times and there is nothing there for a fighter with the natural abilities of Danny Williams to be worried about. Having seen the Rahman vs Tua rematch, I was convinced that the version of Danny we saw vs Francis (the 2nd time), vs Meehan and even vs Long (where he showed tremendous fitness at least against a durable opponent) couldn't handle these 'next generation' prospects.
But then there's that Danny vs Sam, vs Mivorivic (spelling?), vs Francis (the first time)!
Come on Danny, the ability is the there just let the punches go!
Oh dear!
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
mate, to compete at that level you need balls and you MUST be able to take a half decent punch.
danny has neither.
why dont people round here realise looking impressive whilst outboxing a slow soft punching journeyman like jules or waxing a big lumbering stiff like meehan does NOT transalate into world class ability.
grrrrrrrr!
danny has neither.
why dont people round here realise looking impressive whilst outboxing a slow soft punching journeyman like jules or waxing a big lumbering stiff like meehan does NOT transalate into world class ability.
grrrrrrrr!
Maybe not, but Danny's going to beat Michael Sprott on Friday. I would bet everything on Williams to win.Neil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:mate, to compete at that level you need balls and you MUST be able to take a half decent punch.
danny has neither.
why dont people round here realise looking impressive whilst outboxing a slow soft punching journeyman like jules or waxing a big lumbering stiff like meehan does NOT transalate into world class ability.
grrrrrrrr!
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
No, I am certain on this one, mate.Neil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:dannys on a low and michaels on a high right now so dont be so certain.
either way, beating michael will prove absolutely nothing at world level either.
danny is yet to face a world class fighter in his 8 year, 30 fight career, and hes already been beaten badly... TWICE!
Yes, I agree with Bennie here.bennie wrote:No, I am certain on this one, mate.Neil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:dannys on a low and michaels on a high right now so dont be so certain.
either way, beating michael will prove absolutely nothing at world level either.
danny is yet to face a world class fighter in his 8 year, 30 fight career, and hes already been beaten badly... TWICE!
Neil, I didn't say that Danny Williams had world class ability, I said technically he's as good as the likes of Tua et al.
However, once Lewis is gone is there another heavyweight out there that you can labell world class. No there is not, compared with the fighters of the 60's, 70's, hell even the dire 80's. This lot is crap and I wouldn't say any have got world class skills.
A fighter who was declared shot in 1990 is still in the top 5 now says it all. 13 years after his career looked all over and he'd probably still unify the titles if it wasn't for Lewis.
There were 3 hopes for me. These were Jones (who looks like he's moving back down), Byrd (who by all accounts looked very beatable last night) and VITALI. Now its seems like Vitali will be the devision saviour.
If you honestly think Tua, Rahman are all that then your entiled to your opinion. But I think their all terrible and if only Danny could only see this opportunity.
I still believe Danny is the best British heavyweight bar Lewis (and Akinwande) and I see nothing in these 'world class' contendors that Danny should be worried about.
This devision is dire.
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
god how can i explain this.....?
there is domestic class and world class. world class is whoever the best in the world is.
no the current world class bunch dont hav the skills or toughness of the 60s/70s/80s (or 90s for that matter), however they are tougher and more skilled and accomplished and compete on a far higher level than british heavies.
the british heavies are all of a low journeyman standard by US standards.
danny williams getting shaken up by keith long, losing to julius francis, struggling to put sprott away, hard battles with harry senior and mark potter, glass chinned.... he dosnt have the power to trouble guys like hasim rahman and david tua who you mention. they have been in with the best in the world, compete on a higher level and posses the big power to shatter dannys glass chin and send him back to the small club shows in reading where he belongs.
hes not even a sparring partner.
if you somehow believe danny can use his glass chin, lack of power and balls to somehow mix with tua and rahman (or lewis, klitschko, johnson, ruiz, byrd etc) you are mistaken.
henry akinwade also has competed with world level opponents and is above danny.
oh and saying mike tyson was 'shot' in 1990 at the age of 24 is beyond absurd.
do you even understand terms you are using such as 'shot' and 'world class'.....? just an honest qustion.
there is domestic class and world class. world class is whoever the best in the world is.
no the current world class bunch dont hav the skills or toughness of the 60s/70s/80s (or 90s for that matter), however they are tougher and more skilled and accomplished and compete on a far higher level than british heavies.
the british heavies are all of a low journeyman standard by US standards.
danny williams getting shaken up by keith long, losing to julius francis, struggling to put sprott away, hard battles with harry senior and mark potter, glass chinned.... he dosnt have the power to trouble guys like hasim rahman and david tua who you mention. they have been in with the best in the world, compete on a higher level and posses the big power to shatter dannys glass chin and send him back to the small club shows in reading where he belongs.
hes not even a sparring partner.
if you somehow believe danny can use his glass chin, lack of power and balls to somehow mix with tua and rahman (or lewis, klitschko, johnson, ruiz, byrd etc) you are mistaken.
henry akinwade also has competed with world level opponents and is above danny.
oh and saying mike tyson was 'shot' in 1990 at the age of 24 is beyond absurd.
do you even understand terms you are using such as 'shot' and 'world class'.....? just an honest qustion.
-
Dave1armedTua
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 01 Apr 2003, 22:29
As far as the Byrd/Oquendo fight, Oquendo screwed himself out of it. He gave off the impression that he was tired or hurt during the last 4 rounds by constantly taking Byrd down and falling backward on the ropes. Plus, he was still being the counter puncher during the last 3 rounds.
How many times are boxers going to watch championship fights go to the other guy, simply because he was the aggressor during the last 3 rounds? It should be public knowledge by now, if your not moving forward during the last 3, it doesn't matter how well you box, the judges will be against you.
That being said, I can live with the decision because I believe Oquendo should have lost 2 points for dirty tactics, but didn't. Hell, I was half tempted to have him DQ'ed.
How many times are boxers going to watch championship fights go to the other guy, simply because he was the aggressor during the last 3 rounds? It should be public knowledge by now, if your not moving forward during the last 3, it doesn't matter how well you box, the judges will be against you.
That being said, I can live with the decision because I believe Oquendo should have lost 2 points for dirty tactics, but didn't. Hell, I was half tempted to have him DQ'ed.
Okay Neil - so you think Tyson was the same fight post Douglas as he was during his world championship reign. Fair enoughNeil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:god how can i explain this.....?
there is domestic class and world class. world class is whoever the best in the world is.
no the current world class bunch dont hav the skills or toughness of the 60s/70s/80s (or 90s for that matter), however they are tougher and more skilled and accomplished and compete on a far higher level than british heavies.
the british heavies are all of a low journeyman standard by US standards.
danny williams getting shaken up by keith long, losing to julius francis, struggling to put sprott away, hard battles with harry senior and mark potter, glass chinned.... he dosnt have the power to trouble guys like hasim rahman and david tua who you mention. they have been in with the best in the world, compete on a higher level and posses the big power to shatter dannys glass chin and send him back to the small club shows in reading where he belongs.
hes not even a sparring partner.
if you somehow believe danny can use his glass chin, lack of power and balls to somehow mix with tua and rahman (or lewis, klitschko, johnson, ruiz, byrd etc) you are mistaken.
henry akinwade also has competed with world level opponents and is above danny.
oh and saying mike tyson was 'shot' in 1990 at the age of 24 is beyond absurd.
do you even understand terms you are using such as 'shot' and 'world class'.....? just an honest qustion.
It does sound absurd people getting shot at the age of 24, but hey look at the terms are currently being spouted out about BOTH Fernando Vargas and David Reid - two former world champions, both in their mid 20's. So David Reid is not the shadow of the former good champion? Oh I take it thats why he's losing to solid journeymen. Of course that wonderful fighter Sam Hill would have beaten him pre-Trinidad.
I know he proved us wrong, but journalist were saying the words SHOT and GEORGE FOREMAN in the same sentence after his performance against Jimmy Young. Again in his 20's
So why was Tyson not like his old self when he fought Rudduck in the rematch, why was he not as accurate or slipping the shots like he once did. He was at fighting weight, and wasn't rusty. No excuses, maybe its a case of the David Reid, Leon Spinks syndrome. Whether you call it 'shot' or burned out, either way he never regained his old snap. For me, the term shot means an irreversable deteriation of your ability, and as my examples have shown you don't have to be over a certain age to have this problem.
If you think David Reid can regain his old form, then I'm afraid your wrong. Trinidad took too much out of him, just like Douglas took something out of Tyson.
Irrelevant of whether you agree with me or not on this, the FACT is that Tyson hasn't been the same fighter since 1990 - and has been regressing for years. Yet, he's still probably the 2nd best heavyweight out there.
On this world class terminology - yes, its a can be confusing as its means comparing guys like Jerry Quarry with Oquendo, Kirk 'freaking' Johnson etc. So let me explain myself. I prefer to use, for the poor fighters deemed world class, the term 'World rated'.
If you class Frank Bruno a world class fighter, and I supposed you'd have to do that. Well I think more highly of Bruno than I do Tua, Johnson etc (Rahman, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him, he's a little better). In my opinion I think Williams has the skills to beat a prime Bruno. Has he done anything to show me that, NO, just my opinion. Like you basing your opinions of Danny's chin on one fight, and also not taking into account that in the Long fight he threw far more punches than either Tua or Rahman did in their most recent meeting.
Likewise, I think he's got the capabilities of beating Johnson, Tua extra. My god if John Ruiz can hurt Johnson than even 'light punching' Williams can do this.
I didn't say Danny Williams WAS world class or world rated, but I just think he's got the taking of Oquendo, who has now forced himself to be labelled World class - thanks to his win (well essentially).
Look forward to your response.
At the end of the day, you think Williams is crap, while I agree I don't think he's much worse than these so called top ten guys who are also crap. If you paid £15 to see Rahman vs Tua fight in slow motion you may agree.
What's more intersting than Williams vs Sprott is Sam vs Gomez, if Sam wins he's going to be hovering very closely to the top ten and in the world class bracket.
I both Sam and Gomez could be the surprise package in the devision, I predict a fairly good future for both fighters at the world class level, regardless of the result. The winner I expect to get a bit of the world title.
I think BOTH Sam and Gomez can be Oquendo, Williams has the ability, but I doubt he has the bottle.
There's no doubt Tyson was over the hill from the Buster Douglas fight. In fact I felt he was shot from the first Bruno fight a year earlier. It was in that fight that Tyson first showed the side we've seen ever since; a sloppy, wild-swinging, thuggish side. He was awful.stujones wrote:Okay Neil - so you think Tyson was the same fight post Douglas as he was during his world championship reign. Fair enoughNeil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:god how can i explain this.....?
there is domestic class and world class. world class is whoever the best in the world is.
no the current world class bunch dont hav the skills or toughness of the 60s/70s/80s (or 90s for that matter), however they are tougher and more skilled and accomplished and compete on a far higher level than british heavies.
the british heavies are all of a low journeyman standard by US standards.
danny williams getting shaken up by keith long, losing to julius francis, struggling to put sprott away, hard battles with harry senior and mark potter, glass chinned.... he dosnt have the power to trouble guys like hasim rahman and david tua who you mention. they have been in with the best in the world, compete on a higher level and posses the big power to shatter dannys glass chin and send him back to the small club shows in reading where he belongs.
hes not even a sparring partner.
if you somehow believe danny can use his glass chin, lack of power and balls to somehow mix with tua and rahman (or lewis, klitschko, johnson, ruiz, byrd etc) you are mistaken.
henry akinwade also has competed with world level opponents and is above danny.
oh and saying mike tyson was 'shot' in 1990 at the age of 24 is beyond absurd.
do you even understand terms you are using such as 'shot' and 'world class'.....? just an honest qustion.
It does sound absurd people getting shot at the age of 24, but hey look at the terms are currently being spouted out about BOTH Fernando Vargas and David Reid - two former world champions, both in their mid 20's. So David Reid is not the shadow of the former good champion? Oh I take it thats why he's losing to solid journeymen. Of course that wonderful fighter Sam Hill would have beaten him pre-Trinidad.
I know he proved us wrong, but journalist were saying the words SHOT and GEORGE FOREMAN in the same sentence after his performance against Jimmy Young. Again in his 20's
So why was Tyson not like his old self when he fought Rudduck in the rematch, why was he not as accurate or slipping the shots like he once did. He was at fighting weight, and wasn't rusty. No excuses, maybe its a case of the David Reid, Leon Spinks syndrome. Whether you call it 'shot' or burned out, either way he never regained his old snap. For me, the term shot means an irreversable deteriation of your ability, and as my examples have shown you don't have to be over a certain age to have this problem.
If you think David Reid can regain his old form, then I'm afraid your wrong. Trinidad took too much out of him, just like Douglas took something out of Tyson.
Irrelevant of whether you agree with me or not on this, the FACT is that Tyson hasn't been the same fighter since 1990 - and has been regressing for years. Yet, he's still probably the 2nd best heavyweight out there.
On this world class terminology - yes, its a can be confusing as its means comparing guys like Jerry Quarry with Oquendo, Kirk 'freaking' Johnson etc. So let me explain myself. I prefer to use, for the poor fighters deemed world class, the term 'World rated'.
If you class Frank Bruno a world class fighter, and I supposed you'd have to do that. Well I think more highly of Bruno than I do Tua, Johnson etc (Rahman, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him, he's a little better). In my opinion I think Williams has the skills to beat a prime Bruno. Has he done anything to show me that, NO, just my opinion. Like you basing your opinions of Danny's chin on one fight, and also not taking into account that in the Long fight he threw far more punches than either Tua or Rahman did in their most recent meeting.
Likewise, I think he's got the capabilities of beating Johnson, Tua extra. My god if John Ruiz can hurt Johnson than even 'light punching' Williams can do this.
I didn't say Danny Williams WAS world class or world rated, but I just think he's got the taking of Oquendo, who has now forced himself to be labelled World class - thanks to his win (well essentially).
Look forward to your response.
All these years on the only good thing we can say about Tyson is that he cleaned up the heavyweight division in the Eighties when the division desperately needed it. Tyson's anti-social behaviour was kept well hidden by Cus D'Amato back then, and his speed, natural power and conditioning looked sensational in comparison to the fat and dispirited heavyweights he succeeded (King's 'lost generation' as Witherspoon labelled them). People talk about him being a great around the time he defeated Tubbs and Mike Spinks in 1988, but two fights don't make you an all-time great. Joe Louis destroyed 20 men in that fashion - and over several years. Don't get me wrong. Tyson had the potential to become an all-time great, but D'Amato's death, followed by that of Jim Jacobs, then the divorce from Givens, were all massive blows that took away any control in his life. Basically, Tyson has been out of control since 1989 and that was reflected in the first Bruno fight and in his fights ever since.
History has proven he was the was the best of a bad bunch in the late Eighties. As for the Nineties: Everyone knows Evander Holyfield was better than him.
Bennie.
Regarding a prime Tyson - I think he had the ability to be an all time great, but unfortunately not the opponents to confirm my beliefs. The only decent heavyweight he avoided in his first reign was Witherspoon, other than that he faught the best - but the best was poor. The same will happen to whoever dominates from Lewis.
So while he's a great heavyweight champion, he's not quite in the Ali, Louis, Holmes category. Winning the world title (unless you regarded Frans Botha as the main champion) via his victories over Bruno and Sneldon was quite an achievement given his circumstances and if he had beaten Holyfield then I think the comparisons with Louis, Ali could have started to be made. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he didn't so he be placed in the elite brand of heavyweight champions.
Probably put him somewhere between Marciano and Patterson.
His legacy was confirmed when he beat Berbick and claimed to be the youngest heayweight champion of all time.
Regarding a prime Tyson - I think he had the ability to be an all time great, but unfortunately not the opponents to confirm my beliefs. The only decent heavyweight he avoided in his first reign was Witherspoon, other than that he faught the best - but the best was poor. The same will happen to whoever dominates from Lewis.
So while he's a great heavyweight champion, he's not quite in the Ali, Louis, Holmes category. Winning the world title (unless you regarded Frans Botha as the main champion) via his victories over Bruno and Sneldon was quite an achievement given his circumstances and if he had beaten Holyfield then I think the comparisons with Louis, Ali could have started to be made. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he didn't so he be placed in the elite brand of heavyweight champions.
Probably put him somewhere between Marciano and Patterson.
His legacy was confirmed when he beat Berbick and claimed to be the youngest heayweight champion of all time.
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
oh man, you guys are crazy.
mike tyson became a power reliant fighter, neglecting the technique, hence the change in style you two are referring to.
he was still a young powerful in shape man with fast heavy hands and a good chin. certainly not a description of a shot fighter.
david reid and all these fellas youre on about god knows why but since when was it uncommon for '96 and '00 amateur stars to lose to journeymen these days its happening every week.
PS your no historian and who was calling foreman shot when he lost to jimmy young? it was same old george, but this fella young didnt stand in front of him and brace himself for annihilation but thats all off point anyway.
as for danny williams beating BRUNO....? lol, imagine putting danny williams, a man who couldnt beat julius or samil sam mixing with a fella who was outboxing lennox lewis, a man who beat oliver mccall mixed with mike tyson twice and tim witherspoon. quite honestly its laughable.
danny williams and his opposition is so many leagues below frank bruno and also akinwande and a prime herbie hide. the fact that you cant see that means its really not worth debating with you.
also gary mason IMHO would have taken dannys shots and punched right through his glass chin. again mason, theres a fella with toughness and heart who mixed with world class opposition. scott welch is also too tough and heavy handed for dannys fragile psyche and chin to cope with IMO.
why on earth you still believe danny can beat guys like you've mentioned after his laughably bad loss to samil sam confuses me no end.
whatever.
mike tyson became a power reliant fighter, neglecting the technique, hence the change in style you two are referring to.
he was still a young powerful in shape man with fast heavy hands and a good chin. certainly not a description of a shot fighter.
david reid and all these fellas youre on about god knows why but since when was it uncommon for '96 and '00 amateur stars to lose to journeymen these days its happening every week.
PS your no historian and who was calling foreman shot when he lost to jimmy young? it was same old george, but this fella young didnt stand in front of him and brace himself for annihilation but thats all off point anyway.
as for danny williams beating BRUNO....? lol, imagine putting danny williams, a man who couldnt beat julius or samil sam mixing with a fella who was outboxing lennox lewis, a man who beat oliver mccall mixed with mike tyson twice and tim witherspoon. quite honestly its laughable.
danny williams and his opposition is so many leagues below frank bruno and also akinwande and a prime herbie hide. the fact that you cant see that means its really not worth debating with you.
also gary mason IMHO would have taken dannys shots and punched right through his glass chin. again mason, theres a fella with toughness and heart who mixed with world class opposition. scott welch is also too tough and heavy handed for dannys fragile psyche and chin to cope with IMO.
why on earth you still believe danny can beat guys like you've mentioned after his laughably bad loss to samil sam confuses me no end.
whatever.
"prime herbie hide".
So I take you think Herbie is now past his prime - so tell me, when did he become over the hill - remember he's on 31 now. I'm not saying your wrong but your contradicting yourself no end. You say calling Tyson shot at 24 is absurd, but your saying the same thing about Herbie.
Incidently, who the feck has Herbie BEATEN who's remotely world class. BEATEN, fighting world class fighter doesn't mean to say your any good. Otherwise we'll all be hailing Will Kid Fire McIntyre as a decent Supermiddleweight. Herbie's best win is against Damon Reid or a 40 year old Tony Tucker - Damon Reid is not of the level of Francis, beyond these two, Hides best win is against Michael Murray (who Danny beat after 5 fights by the way). Oh and you mentioned Scott Welsch - remember Francis beating him or did you forget.
My take on Danny is that the Francis performance (i.e. losing to a person of Francis's level - was a one-off due to the occasion) but the Sam fight showed us his level. However, I believe that Sam will cause a few ripples in the World class and Danny can win the vacant European crown and maybe get fights with the likes of Johnson, which I think he'll win. I think Sam will beat that glass chinned Johnson.
Gary Mason - mixed it with world class and lost the only time he's done it. If you think Tyrrel Biggs was world class then thats your call, personally I put him in the Reid category. The way Biggs could hardly stand when he faught Lewis in 1991 signified just how washed up he was when he met
I like the way you got out of the Reid situation, because other Olympians lose to Journeymen. Yes, but none of these other Olympians your talking about (and I take it you mean Clay Bey, Ricardo Williams, Bodajo) ever won the world champions, ever beat World class fighters. Reid did and now he can hardly stand up to Journeymen. You say I'm no historian, but if you've seen the pre and post Trindad version of Reid you'll give me those points.
So remind again of the great WINS on Bruno's record, oh yeah the drugged up schizophrenic McCall, or is it Carl Williams (about 6 years beyond his prime).
I'm NOT saying you might not be correct - all I said is that I BELIEVE he has the tools to beat OQUENDO - will he do it should they ever meet, NO probably not, but like Johnny Nelson I see him as a waste of a great natural ability. The whole point of this thread was to signify how crap the devision is that I think if Danny did put his mind to it he could beat these fighters - believe me that's not a compliment of Williams's ability.
Oh yes, if you read around or listen to the older folks talk alot of people (although they won't like to admit it now) thought that Zaire took something out of Foreman. Cause there was those shaky moments vs Lyle, a not (quite) so distructive victory over Frazier and a loss to Young. So yes, people did think wasn't the same fighter after Zaire - even Foreman's admited that, that's why he retired at such a early age.
So I take you think Herbie is now past his prime - so tell me, when did he become over the hill - remember he's on 31 now. I'm not saying your wrong but your contradicting yourself no end. You say calling Tyson shot at 24 is absurd, but your saying the same thing about Herbie.
Incidently, who the feck has Herbie BEATEN who's remotely world class. BEATEN, fighting world class fighter doesn't mean to say your any good. Otherwise we'll all be hailing Will Kid Fire McIntyre as a decent Supermiddleweight. Herbie's best win is against Damon Reid or a 40 year old Tony Tucker - Damon Reid is not of the level of Francis, beyond these two, Hides best win is against Michael Murray (who Danny beat after 5 fights by the way). Oh and you mentioned Scott Welsch - remember Francis beating him or did you forget.
My take on Danny is that the Francis performance (i.e. losing to a person of Francis's level - was a one-off due to the occasion) but the Sam fight showed us his level. However, I believe that Sam will cause a few ripples in the World class and Danny can win the vacant European crown and maybe get fights with the likes of Johnson, which I think he'll win. I think Sam will beat that glass chinned Johnson.
Gary Mason - mixed it with world class and lost the only time he's done it. If you think Tyrrel Biggs was world class then thats your call, personally I put him in the Reid category. The way Biggs could hardly stand when he faught Lewis in 1991 signified just how washed up he was when he met
I like the way you got out of the Reid situation, because other Olympians lose to Journeymen. Yes, but none of these other Olympians your talking about (and I take it you mean Clay Bey, Ricardo Williams, Bodajo) ever won the world champions, ever beat World class fighters. Reid did and now he can hardly stand up to Journeymen. You say I'm no historian, but if you've seen the pre and post Trindad version of Reid you'll give me those points.
So remind again of the great WINS on Bruno's record, oh yeah the drugged up schizophrenic McCall, or is it Carl Williams (about 6 years beyond his prime).
I'm NOT saying you might not be correct - all I said is that I BELIEVE he has the tools to beat OQUENDO - will he do it should they ever meet, NO probably not, but like Johnny Nelson I see him as a waste of a great natural ability. The whole point of this thread was to signify how crap the devision is that I think if Danny did put his mind to it he could beat these fighters - believe me that's not a compliment of Williams's ability.
Oh yes, if you read around or listen to the older folks talk alot of people (although they won't like to admit it now) thought that Zaire took something out of Foreman. Cause there was those shaky moments vs Lyle, a not (quite) so distructive victory over Frazier and a loss to Young. So yes, people did think wasn't the same fighter after Zaire - even Foreman's admited that, that's why he retired at such a early age.
As much as I like Danny Williams (I've met the guy and he really is a top bloke) he never was and never will be world class. Guys like Hasim Rahman or even John Ruiz would take him apart, no question about it. We all hoped he could make it further than British level but he hasn't and he won't.
But to say the guy has no balls is absolutely ludicrous.
But to say the guy has no balls is absolutely ludicrous.
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
danny williams wouldny mix it 7 tough rds with lennox lewis as gary mason did.
herbie hide mainly beat stiffs no doubt, but showed world class ability and went 6 with bowe. danny wouldnt last with bowe. herbie looks past it to me. slow and cumbersome. probably the 3 yrs off and bulking up. fornicate knows but hes not wat he used to be.
dissing brunos win over mccall is low. mccall is 36 and still considered one of the most dangerous heavies int he world. last year he was legitimately ranked at #4 in the world. YEEEEEARS after bruno beat him.
danny could never get on the world stage and particularly outlast a rock jawed, hard punching fighter like mccall.
im never gonna change your mind, but if we take a consensus asking whether danny williams is a world class heavy or not, i know what the resounding answer will be....
herbie hide mainly beat stiffs no doubt, but showed world class ability and went 6 with bowe. danny wouldnt last with bowe. herbie looks past it to me. slow and cumbersome. probably the 3 yrs off and bulking up. fornicate knows but hes not wat he used to be.
dissing brunos win over mccall is low. mccall is 36 and still considered one of the most dangerous heavies int he world. last year he was legitimately ranked at #4 in the world. YEEEEEARS after bruno beat him.
danny could never get on the world stage and particularly outlast a rock jawed, hard punching fighter like mccall.
im never gonna change your mind, but if we take a consensus asking whether danny williams is a world class heavy or not, i know what the resounding answer will be....
-
MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13262
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
Your comparisons mean bugger all really. Hide went 6 with Bowe, but he spent most of the time on the canvas didn't he?Neil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:danny williams wouldny mix it 7 tough rds with lennox lewis as gary mason did.
herbie hide mainly beat stiffs no doubt, but showed world class ability and went 6 with bowe. danny wouldnt last with bowe. herbie looks past it to me. slow and cumbersome. probably the 3 yrs off and bulking up. fornicate knows but hes not wat he used to be.
dissing brunos win over mccall is low. mccall is 36 and still considered one of the most dangerous heavies int he world. last year he was legitimately ranked at #4 in the world. YEEEEEARS after bruno beat him.
danny could never get on the world stage and particularly outlast a rock jawed, hard punching fighter like mccall.
im never gonna change your mind, but if we take a consensus asking whether danny williams is a world class heavy or not, i know what the resounding answer will be....
Mason virtualy quit when his eye closed up against Lewis, something Williams can never be accused of - just take a look at the way he carried on with a dislocated shoulder - he showed real heart that night.
Williams will beat Sprott Friday night, then hopefully knockout china-chinned Herbie asap ( again 8) )
-
Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 956
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
actually the referee stopped mason. gary mason was no quitter. the ref stopped the fight due to eye damage.
herbie hide outboxed riddick bowe for 3 rds easy. no way danny could outbox bowe for a minute.
hides not all that great, but he was leagues above dannny (note the word 'was')
maybe you should watch some videotape fella?
herbie hide outboxed riddick bowe for 3 rds easy. no way danny could outbox bowe for a minute.
hides not all that great, but he was leagues above dannny (note the word 'was')
maybe you should watch some videotape fella?
-
MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13262
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
The referee stopped the fight cause Mason had stopped fighting back, ie quit - I don't need to watch the video mate, I was there. Where were you, I'm guessing it was past your bedtime wasn't it?Neil (The Bounty) Hunter wrote:actually the referee stopped mason. gary mason was no quitter. the ref stopped the fight due to eye damage.
herbie hide outboxed riddick bowe for 3 rds easy. no way danny could outbox bowe for a minute.
hides not all that great, but he was leagues above dannny (note the word 'was')
maybe you should watch some videotape fella?
Mason looked lousy in that fight. You have to remember Lewis had boxed only 14 times up to then; Mason 35. Mickey Duff was convinced his man was going to beat Lewis, but in the event he never had a prayer.
I remember Mason virtually turning his back on Lewis several times in a novice attempt to avoid getting hit. I wanted to hide my head in my hands.
I remember Mason virtually turning his back on Lewis several times in a novice attempt to avoid getting hit. I wanted to hide my head in my hands.
-
MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13262
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
Amazing to think Duff thought Mason would win that, he was usualy dead right at judging a fight before hand. I think the bookies had Mason a favorite too?bennie wrote:Mason looked lousy in that fight. You have to remember Lewis had boxed only 14 times up to then; Mason 35. Mickey Duff was convinced his man was going to beat Lewis, but in the event he never had a prayer.
I remember Mason virtually turning his back on Lewis several times in a novice attempt to avoid getting hit. I wanted to hide my head in my hands.
Mason was really a nice guy, and they tried to give him the "Bruno Mark 2" build up, but it was never gonna happen. He had a good chin & a decent punch but was too much of a plodder.
You're right, it was a painful fight to watch.
The real dark horse of the division back then was Horace Notice. He looked upright and beatable, but had more mental strength than Mason and decent power. It was a tragedy when he had to retire with eye trouble on the verge of cracking the world top ten.MightyWarrior wrote:Amazing to think Duff thought Mason would win that, he was usualy dead right at judging a fight before hand. I think the bookies had Mason a favorite too?bennie wrote:Mason looked lousy in that fight. You have to remember Lewis had boxed only 14 times up to then; Mason 35. Mickey Duff was convinced his man was going to beat Lewis, but in the event he never had a prayer.
I remember Mason virtually turning his back on Lewis several times in a novice attempt to avoid getting hit. I wanted to hide my head in my hands.
Mason was really a nice guy, and they tried to give him the "Bruno Mark 2" build up, but it was never gonna happen. He had a good chin & a decent punch but was too much of a plodder.
You're right, it was a painful fight to watch.
Incidentally, just a few points I'd like to raise with you if I may, one or two in the form of questions so as to cover myself:
Riddick Bowe turned the fight around against Herbie Hide by flooring him with the most blatant headbutt you'll ever see.
Oliver McCall ranks with Marvin Hart as the worst heavyweight champion of all time.
Did Tyrell Biggs take a 'dive' against Mason?
Did James Tillis do something similar against Gary?
-
MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13262
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
Riddick Bowe turned the fight around against Herbie Hide by flooring him with the most blatant headbutt you'll ever see.
Did Herbie tell you that?
Oliver McCall ranks with Marvin Hart as the worst heavyweight champion of all time.
Correct. Don't want to disrespect Frank on this day, but by his 4th attempt they finally found the right guy for him.
Did Tyrell Biggs take a 'dive' against Mason?
Yes, according to my mate Ritchie who was there
Did James Tillis do something similar against Gary?[/quote]
Probably, but it was less blatant. Boxing to orders?
And Notice looked a better bet than Mason for awhile. I heard he's driving a cab these days.
Did Herbie tell you that?
Oliver McCall ranks with Marvin Hart as the worst heavyweight champion of all time.
Correct. Don't want to disrespect Frank on this day, but by his 4th attempt they finally found the right guy for him.
Did Tyrell Biggs take a 'dive' against Mason?
Yes, according to my mate Ritchie who was there
Did James Tillis do something similar against Gary?[/quote]
Probably, but it was less blatant. Boxing to orders?
And Notice looked a better bet than Mason for awhile. I heard he's driving a cab these days.