BoxRec

Such as Norton last night- does he now need to win just one more fight , or does the draw not count towards the "three defences total."

Yes it does, as current champion he still retains that title.

taffytoon wrote:Yes it does, as current champion he still retains that title.

Yes- but does a draw count as one of the "three" needed to win the Lonsdale belt outright? (If that makes sense?)

whicker wrote:

taffytoon wrote:Yes it does, as current champion he still retains that title.

Yes- but does a draw count as one of the "three" needed to win the Lonsdale belt outright? (If that makes sense?)

Good question.

I think it's four fights these days now?

Its a defense of the belt so it counts.

That me understanding.

3 succesfull defences.

is a draw succesfull as it's normally sanctioned to a rematch??

good question.

hurlock wrote:3 succesfull defences.

is a draw succesfull as it's normally sanctioned to a rematch??

good question.

I believe technically it's 4 total wins, whether defences or not. Not sure about the draw really. But I thought it was 4 wins rather than winning the title plus three defences, so a draw would not count.

I may be wrong!

The draw will count, he did defend his title (He did not lose)

taffytoon wrote:The draw will count, he did defend his title (He did not lose)

Yeah, that sort of seems logical- a draw for a defending chapion is, in effect, a win. However, it does technically mean a belt could be "won" outright, without winning a defence!

As far as I know it doesn't have to be defences either. You could win the belt 4 seperate times and lose your first defence each time but because you have fought for the belt and won 4 times you get to keep it.

winkveron wrote:As far as I know it doesn't have to be defences either. You could win the belt 4 seperate times and lose your first defence each time but because you have fought for the belt and won 4 times you get to keep it.

Yes and no, it is 3 fights

Example

Win the title equals 1 point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a second time equals another point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a third time equals 1 point towards keeping the title and now you have won it 3 times which means you keep the belt.

Lord Lonsdale organised boxing matches and was the first president of the National Sporting Club. In 1909, he introduced the Lonsdale Belt as a new trophy for the British champion at each weight division. The belts were crafted from porcelain and twenty-two carat gold and were only to be held by a fighter as long as he was British champion. However, a British champion was allowed to keep his Lonsdale Belt if he defended his title successfully two times.


This is my understanding, if I am wrong I am sure someone on here will put me right

taffytoon wrote:

winkveron wrote:As far as I know it doesn't have to be defences either. You could win the belt 4 seperate times and lose your first defence each time but because you have fought for the belt and won 4 times you get to keep it.

Yes and no, it is 3 fights

Example

Win the title equals 1 point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a second time equals another point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a third time equals 1 point towards keeping the title and now you have won it 3 times which means you keep the belt.

Lord Lonsdale organised boxing matches and was the first president of the National Sporting Club. In 1909, he introduced the Lonsdale Belt as a new trophy for the British champion at each weight division. The belts were crafted from porcelain and twenty-two carat gold and were only to be held by a fighter as long as he was British champion. However, a British champion was allowed to keep his Lonsdale Belt if he defended his title successfully two times.


This is my understanding, if I am wrong I am sure someone on here will put me right

Your wrong pal, gotta be 4 wins, including a mandatory fight, at the same weight. Not sure about the draw thing though.

Mooresy wrote:

taffytoon wrote:

winkveron wrote:As far as I know it doesn't have to be defences either. You could win the belt 4 seperate times and lose your first defence each time but because you have fought for the belt and won 4 times you get to keep it.

Yes and no, it is 3 fights

Example

Win the title equals 1 point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a second time equals another point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a third time equals 1 point towards keeping the title and now you have won it 3 times which means you keep the belt.

Lord Lonsdale organised boxing matches and was the first president of the National Sporting Club. In 1909, he introduced the Lonsdale Belt as a new trophy for the British champion at each weight division. The belts were crafted from porcelain and twenty-two carat gold and were only to be held by a fighter as long as he was British champion. However, a British champion was allowed to keep his Lonsdale Belt if he defended his title successfully two times.


This is my understanding, if I am wrong I am sure someone on here will put me right

Your wrong pal, gotta be 4 wins, including a mandatory fight, at the same weight. Not sure about the draw thing though.

We will have to agree to disagree my friend

The way I see it a draw is not a win, even though the champion retains his title. Therefore it cannot be counted as a successful defense of the title and a step towards winning the Lonsdale belt outright. Thats my view, but I cant be sure on it.

taffytoon wrote: We will have to agree to disagree my friend

It's definatly 4 fights now- win it, and three defences. It used to be 3 fights- win it and two defences.

Ask anyone!

Whats unclear still is if a drawn fight counts as one of the three defences towards this tally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdale_B ... rting_Club

That's the link to the Wiki about the Lonsdale belt.

It states in the Wiki that you have to win the Lonsdale belt and then defend it 2 times. (that is 3 fights in total when the belt is on the line)

At the bottom of the Wiki there is also a list of all people who have won the Lonsdale belt outright, the last being Kell Brook last year.

taffytoon wrote:

Mooresy wrote: Your wrong pal, gotta be 4 wins, including a mandatory fight, at the same weight. Not sure about the draw thing though.

We will have to agree to disagree my friend

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

Mooresy you must have got yours a while ago then?

terrez wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdale_B ... rting_Club

That's the link to the Wiki about the Lonsdale belt.

It states in the Wiki that you have to win the Lonsdale belt and then defend it 2 times. (that is 3 fights in total when the belt is on the line)

At the bottom of the Wiki there is also a list of all people who have won the Lonsdale belt outright, the last being Kell Brook last year.

You def have to win and defend it 3 times a Million %, so thats 4 fights in total, im sure the Draw Counts as you didnt Lose... Kell Brook was the last but he Won and 3 Defends...

terrez wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdale_B ... rting_Club

That's the link to the Wiki about the Lonsdale belt.

It states in the Wiki that you have to win the Lonsdale belt and then defend it 2 times. (that is 3 fights in total when the belt is on the line)

At the bottom of the Wiki there is also a list of all people who have won the Lonsdale belt outright, the last being Kell Brook last year.

Terrez, it was three notches for much of the last century but became four in recent years.

bennie wrote:

terrez wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdale_B ... rting_Club

That's the link to the Wiki about the Lonsdale belt.

It states in the Wiki that you have to win the Lonsdale belt and then defend it 2 times. (that is 3 fights in total when the belt is on the line)

At the bottom of the Wiki there is also a list of all people who have won the Lonsdale belt outright, the last being Kell Brook last year.

Terrez, it was three notches for much of the last century but became four in recent years.

This.
It used to be three until around 1999.
The BBBofC argued that due to the number of belts available increasing significantly, with many fighters choosing to go down the IBO/WBU/WBF route, or fight for inter-continental titles, the British title had become easier to acquire outright, which is why they decided to increase the number of victories required to keep the Lonsdale outright.

taffytoon wrote:

Mooresy wrote:

taffytoon wrote: Yes and no, it is 3 fights

Example

Win the title equals 1 point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a second time equals another point towards keeping the belt
Lose first defence
Win the title a third time equals 1 point towards keeping the title and now you have won it 3 times which means you keep the belt.

Lord Lonsdale organised boxing matches and was the first president of the National Sporting Club. In 1909, he introduced the Lonsdale Belt as a new trophy for the British champion at each weight division. The belts were crafted from porcelain and twenty-two carat gold and were only to be held by a fighter as long as he was British champion. However, a British champion was allowed to keep his Lonsdale Belt if he defended his title successfully two times.


This is my understanding, if I am wrong I am sure someone on here will put me right

Your wrong pal, gotta be 4 wins, including a mandatory fight, at the same weight. Not sure about the draw thing though.

We will have to agree to disagree my friend

Rule 22.12 A champion shall forfiet his title in the following circumstances

(a) If defeated in a championship contest sanctioned and controlled by the board, at the same weight he won the title.

Therefore a draw is not a defeat and if it's not a defeat, then in the case of the champion only, it must be deemed a success. On the other hand, nowhere in the boards rulebook, does it make an allowance for a draw.

If challenging a champion and you draw, you're unsuccessful, if contesting a vacant title and you draw, the championship remains vacant...... make sense?

I phoned the board this morning and Robert is on holiday.... it stumped the others in the office though!!!

It counts. A draw is a defense. The rule is win it and defend three times (including a mandatory) this is a change from the old win and defend twice (I think it must have been costing the Board of control too much in belts). With the rule now being 3 defences, nobady will ever beat Ryan Rhodes record for quickest outright winner.

In short, yes they count. You could win the belt and then have three draws, you would still keep the belt out-right.

So between us we got the answer 8)
Win it and defend it 3 times the belt is your (Or win it 4 times in total)
A draw does count towards the 4 wins needed.


There you go.

taffytoon wrote:So between us we got the answer 8)
Win it and defend it 3 times the belt is your (Or win it 4 times in total)
A draw does count towards the 4 wins needed.


There you go.

Not all the info I believe - if you score 4 wins at the same weight - EG win the title, defend it, lose it. win it again, lose it again, win it again - therefore havce only made one successful defence, but have scored 4 victories for the British title at that weight, you still keep the lonsdale belt.

taffytoon wrote:So between us we got the answer 8)
Win it and defend it 3 times the belt is your (Or win it 4 times in total)
A draw does count towards the 4 wins needed.


There you go.

Defences are irrelevant. Obviously defences (including draws for the champion) count, but the rule is quite straightforward.

Pre 1982 it was three victories in championship contests, not neccesarily consecutively, secured the belt. Any number of belts could be won.

Post 1982 one belt only in a weight division could become the sole property of the person who succeeded in the above.

Post Ryan Rhodes, it is four victories, in Championship contests, not neccesarily consecutively, however, one must be a mandatory.

In the case of someone winning two contests prior to thr new four fight ruling, then they are bound under the old system to keep a belt after three wins.

Going back some years, I think Kevin Finnegan made a Lonsdale belt his own property in his final contest, having had two wins earlier on in his career.

More than one belt can still be won outright, provided it is in different weight categories.