Page 1 of 2
Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 17 Jan 2010, 10:00
by ThatOne
I just recently re-watched the two fights, back to back. Even though the fights were only one year apart it struck me that Ali became a different fighter between the two fights.Where as the Ali of Ali-Frazier ll looked like the Ali of "old" the Ali of Ali-Frazier lll was much bigger and fought much more in the center of the ring. There was hardly any "dancing".
It seemed Ali reinvented himself after The Thrilla.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 17 Jan 2010, 18:12
by Goodnight, Irene
Yeah, I suppose. Do you have a particular point, though?
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 17 Jan 2010, 19:21
by ThatOne
It's just amazing the difference between the two fights. Ali looks like two different fighters;physically and tactically.
\
I should have said Ali reinvented himselft after the second Frazier fight. He buried the Ali that resembled a larger Sugar Ray.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 17 Jan 2010, 19:24
by Goodnight, Irene
He had that ability, yes. Of course, it was more forced, than anything. He was getting older, starting to lose his reflexes, & finding it more difficult to shift weight prior to his fights.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 11:48
by wvboxer
I think the 2nd Norton fight is the closest Ali came to his 60s form. I think he looked really good in a few fights from 1972 -1974. The fights with Quarry & Bugner for example. He stopped winning because of his physical gifts after 1974 & won solely on heart, durability, & ring intelligence. The Ali of those later years fights nothing like he did earlier. He just sort of back peddled around the ring. The bounce was completly gone. The forward & backward movement I mean. He started to only circle.
Frazier 2 was the end of the "floating" Ali.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 11:52
by dempseyfire
Ali flip-flopped styles throughout the 70s. For example he fought Norton II and Frazier II with lots of dancing similar to the 60s Ali (and it's no coincidence he was lighter for those fights). But he fought the likes of Mathis, Foster etc. much more flat-footed like he fought Frazier in Manilla.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 11:55
by Roars Like Me
He also thought Frazier was going to be easy meat and shot by then so I guess that had something to do with it..
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 11:57
by Goodnight, Irene
Also, the, "dancing" of Ali in the 1974 fight with Frazier is over-stated. Though obvious, he does more clinching (it was at times dreadful for its ubiquity & frequency) than dancing in this fight. It got him the win (I don't know why there remains this stubborn contingent which maintains Frazier was robbed or edged the fight, it was a plain Ali victory), but it was God-awful to watch, & bordered on cheap.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:20
by ThatOne
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Also, the, "dancing" of Ali in the 1974 fight with Frazier is over-stated. Though obvious, he does more clinching (it was at times dreadful for its ubiquity & frequency) than dancing in this fight. It got him the win (I don't know why there remains this stubborn contingent which maintains Frazier was robbed or edged the fight, it was a plain Ali victory), but it was God-awful to watch, & bordered on cheap.
All Frazier had to do was slip down to get out of Ali's clinches but he seemed to content to rest and rest his head on Ali's chest.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:23
by Goodnight, Irene
Fact remains it was the un-criticisable one who initiated it.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:27
by ThatOne
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fact remains it was the un-criticisable one who initiated it.
I applaud his holding. I think it's a clever technique. It's part of over all ring generalmanship. A great body puncher would have and should have made him pay dearly as Chuvalo did. Also, if you notice I didn't get hysterical over Foreman's pushing. Frazier should have pushed him back, You foul me I will foul you.
Thing like hitting a guy when he's down or defenseless ala Cooney-Norton or purposely hitting below the bell ala Golota offend me greatly. Boxing is violent enough without the gratuitous cruelty but a little shoving or holding doesn't offend me.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:31
by Goodnight, Irene
Foreman pushed for one or two rounds. Ali held for twelve.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:39
by ThatOne
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Foreman pushed for one or two rounds. Ali held for twelve.
He only had to push Frazier or most of his earlier opponents for a couple of rounds because that's all it took him to create the space to knock them out. A boxing classicist would have said that he should have created space with his jab or ate whatever punches they threw coming in. But all great fighters have their little tricks.
Ali's not the first or last fighter to bend the rules. He was rarely gratutuitously violent in the ring and there are more instances of where he wasn't than when he was and when he was he was usually provoked.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:40
by Goodnight, Irene
What's a classicist?
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:44
by ThatOne
Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's a classicist?
I kind of just used it. But boxing purists would say if you can't create space with your jab than you should just eat the punches or slip them rather than push or hold.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 24 Feb 2010, 12:51
by Goodnight, Irene
...Or hug, for that matter.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 16:31
by jrc26
Goodnight, Irene wrote:...Or hug, for that matter.
What exactly should Ali have done when Joe jumped in with one of the best left hooks in the history of boxing? Stood there and traded with him and gotten knocked on his a$$ like in the first fight just to entertain you? The change in tactic from the first fight allowed him to win the 2nd and his pure heart allowed him to win the 3rd. If he had stood and traded with Frazier in II and lost then who knows what would have happened to his career after that. I think the beatings he took in Frazier III and against Foreman all while winning both fights were more than enough entertainment to make up for Frazier II.
"un-criticisable one"
I am going to go out on a limb and say Ali has taken more criticism in his life than probably any other fighter after the times of Joe Louis, with the possible exception of Mike Tyson. Whether or not it is deserved or not doesn't really matter, he has taken it from every angle in his life. In recent years he has been put on more of a pedestal, but so what? We still have people like you to stick it to him on message boards.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 16:39
by dempseyfire
jrc26 wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:...Or hug, for that matter.
What exactly should Ali have done when Joe jumped in with one of the best left hooks in the history of boxing? Stood there and traded with him and gotten knocked on his a$$ like in the first fight just to entertain you? The change in tactic from the first fight allowed him to win the 2nd and his pure heart allowed him to win the 3rd. If he had stood and traded with Frazier in II and lost then who knows what would have happened to his career after that. I think the beatings he took in Frazier III and against Foreman all while winning both fights were more than enough entertainment to make up for Frazier II.
"un-criticisable one"
I am going to go out on a limb and say Ali has taken more criticism in his life than probably any other fighter after the times of Joe Louis, with the possible exception of Mike Tyson. Whether or not it is deserved or not doesn't really matter, he has taken it from every angle in his life. In recent years he has been put on more of a pedestal, but so what? We still have people like you to stick it to him on message boards.
Hmmmm, you do realize there is a difference between excessive holding and 'slugging'trading'?
Ali did lots of clinching in their first fight as well, but it was not excessive or to the extent that it was clearly against the established rules. Ditto with the Norton rematch . . .Ali's strength was his legs and he used them much more in the Norton rematch.
Any unbiased eye would watch the Frazier rematch and conclude that Ali's excessive holding was so frequent that it went beyond 'smart tactics' to blatant rule-breaking.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 16:46
by Syntax Error
ThatOne wrote:I just recently re-watched the two fights, back to back. Even though the fights were only one year apart it struck me that Ali became a different fighter between the two fights.Where as the Ali of Ali-Frazier ll looked like the Ali of "old" the Ali of Ali-Frazier lll was much bigger and fought much more in the center of the ring. There was hardly any "dancing".
It seemed Ali reinvented himself after The Thrilla.
Ali's legs went in about 1974.
The last time he really danced would have been in the Norton fights of 1973.
He then had to rely on his chin & heart to see him through tough fights.
This is what makes Ali so great; that ability to adapt his style to his diminishing skills.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 19:58
by jrc26
Hmmmm, you do realize there is a difference between excessive holding and 'slugging'trading'?
No please tell me.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 21:48
by Goodnight, Irene
^^^LOL.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 23:10
by dempseyfire
jrc26 wrote:Hmmmm, you do realize there is a difference between excessive holding and 'slugging'trading'?
No please tell me.
You just seemed to be implying that Ali HAD to hold Frazier and that the only alternative was to trade with Joe, which I disagree with.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 23:18
by yancey
ThatOne wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's a classicist?
I kind of just used it. But boxing purists would say if you can't create space with your jab than you should just eat the punches or slip them rather than push or hold.
Agree.
Foreman should have created space against Frazier the right way.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 26 Feb 2010, 23:20
by yancey
dempseyfire wrote:jrc26 wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:...Or hug, for that matter.
What exactly should Ali have done when Joe jumped in with one of the best left hooks in the history of boxing? Stood there and traded with him and gotten knocked on his a$$ like in the first fight just to entertain you? The change in tactic from the first fight allowed him to win the 2nd and his pure heart allowed him to win the 3rd. If he had stood and traded with Frazier in II and lost then who knows what would have happened to his career after that. I think the beatings he took in Frazier III and against Foreman all while winning both fights were more than enough entertainment to make up for Frazier II.
"un-criticisable one"
I am going to go out on a limb and say Ali has taken more criticism in his life than probably any other fighter after the times of Joe Louis, with the possible exception of Mike Tyson. Whether or not it is deserved or not doesn't really matter, he has taken it from every angle in his life. In recent years he has been put on more of a pedestal, but so what? We still have people like you to stick it to him on message boards.
Hmmmm, you do realize there is a difference between excessive holding and 'slugging'trading'?
Ali did lots of clinching in their first fight as well, but it was not excessive or to the extent that it was clearly against the established rules. Ditto with the Norton rematch . . .Ali's strength was his legs and he used them much more in the Norton rematch.
Any unbiased eye would watch the Frazier rematch and conclude that Ali's excessive holding was so frequent that it went beyond 'smart tactics' to blatant rule-breaking.
Agree.
Perez should have stopped that crap.
Re: Ali-Frazier ll And Ali-Frazier lll
Posted: 28 Feb 2010, 15:01
by granberry
dempseyfire wrote:
. . .
Any unbiased eye would watch the Frazier rematch and conclude that Ali's excessive holding was so frequent that it went beyond 'smart tactics' to blatant rule-breaking.