BoxRec

Out of all the all times great fighters which one do you think had the weakest opposition or resume?

Dempsey

Deleted - (Burns was never and all-time great).

Gonna be way too much emphasis on the greats at Heavy, as usual.

Best way to do this would be to compile, say, a top five or ten list for each division (or at least each one with a decent history), & assess the competition of the conensus legends of each individual weightclass.

Otherwise, this will just be a Heavyweight-athon, as though great fighters never existed below 200lbs.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:as though great fighters never existed below 200lbs

and before 1970.

Larry Holmes

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes is a good answer. Analysis of his competition is pretty grim reading, & he qualifies as a legend in the eyes of virtually everyone...particularly himself

To me, nigh-on the best instance anyone could name would be Ricardo Lopez. His opposition was putrid at times, mediocre for the most part, & yet, I don't know that I can honestly say there's been a better fighter in my lifetime. He was that good, & his competition, comparatively, was that poor.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

He was that good, & his competition, comparatively, was that poor.

Maybe that's one of the reasons he looked so good?

It really wasn't, if you're familiar with his career.

Holmes at least beat another great fighter in Norton.

To me a good choice is Bob Foster. Dick Tiger was a GREAT middleweight but not great at 175 and he was also close to 40 years old. Ditto with Henry Hank, who was old as a light heavy and way above his optimal weight.

And I hate to say it but John L. Sullivan. His resume consists mainly of local brawlers and middleweights.

"Holmes at least beat another great fighter in Norton..." - Dempsey

Norton wasn't ever that great, & he was old by the time Holmes fought him (& flatly refused to entertain the notion of ever fighting him again, I might add).

In any event, it hardly matters. Looking over Holmes' resume, it'd take a hell of a lot more than an ageing Norton to break ground on his CV. Six of his challengers (two of whom it could be quite reasonably argued decisioned him, & another of which almost knocked him out) had sixteen fights or fewer, & none of them, save Witherspoon, amounted to anything even close to special anyway. Beyond that, you have the ordinary LeDoux, lacklustre Frank, mediocre Evangelista, porcelain-jawed Zanon & company making up most of the rest. Who's the best fighter he beat during his tenure? I came up with one-dimensional wonders Shavers & Cooney, & perhaps a green Witherspoon.

People love to talk about Louis', "Bum Of The Month Club" --- usually, oblivious to its context --- but never, ever do you hear about this side of Holmes. It's not his fault, but he's a star candidate for the thread. An old Dempsey or washed-up Foreman wouldn't make up for that list, much less a past-it Norton.

I do think Bob Foster's a pretty handy shout, as well. Roy Jones' move to Light-Heavyweight also marked a severe downturn in quality of opposition

Ok lets focus this a bit. I'll pick a few names to start people off....

Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones
Bob Foster
Roberto Duran
Ezzard Charles
Ricardo Lopez
Barney Ross
Bernard Hopkins
Alexis Arguello
Archie Moore
Julio Cesar Chavez

Controversial wrote:Ok lets focus this a bit. I'll pick a few names to start people off....

Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones
Bob Foster
Roberto Duran
Ezzard Charles
Ricardo Lopez
Barney Ross
Bernard Hopkins
Alexis Arguello
Archie Moore
Julio Cesar Chavez

You've got some howlers on that list, brojam.

Duran!? Charles!? Moore!? Arguello!? Holyfield!?

Among the opponents faced between these guys, you'll see names like Armstrong, Louis, Pryor, Mancini, Leonard, McLarnin, Battalino, Moore, Charles, Marciano, Canzoneri, Ali, Patterson, Hagler, Hearns, Moorer, Benitez, Lewis, Bowe, Olivares, Limon, Tyson, Foreman, DeJesus, Ramirez --- & that's just to name some of the brighter lights (off the top of my head, no less), let alone the many solid contenders & sometime-champions these guys also faced.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
You've got some howlers on that list, brojam.

Duran!? Charles!? Moore!? Arguello!? Holyfield!?

Among the opponents faced between these guys, you'll see names like Armstrong, Louis, Pryor, Mancini, Leonard, McLarnin, Battalino, Moore, Charles, Marciano, Canzoneri, Ali, Patterson, Hagler, Hearns, Moorer, Benitez, Lewis, Bowe, Olivares, Limon, Tyson, Foreman, DeJesus, Ramirez --- & that's just to name some of the brighter lights (off the top of my head, no less), let alone the many solid contenders & sometime-champions these guys also faced.

Ha ha, I'm not called "controversial" for nothing. Just putting a few big names out there to focus the discussion a bit....Remember we are talking about fighters called 'all time greats', by very definition they will have big names on their records, some better than others though......

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

I do not think it is as bad as many would say, especially that we are discussing his opposition, which means not only his wins. This adds Holyfield, Tyson and Michael Spinks to (shot) Ali, (past prime) Norton, Shavers, Berbick and some other decent wins. Fighting 3 ATGs, 2 of them close to their primes... well, no way it was the weakest opposition, even at HW.

BTW, listing Holyfield (as someone did) is simply insane. Lewis (x2), Tyson (x2), Foreman, Holmes (OK, a little past prime), Quawi (x2) to mention only some ATGs he fought.

gregor wrote:

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

I do not think it is as bad as many would say, especially that we are discussing his opposition, which means not only his wins. This adds Holyfield, Tyson and Michael Spinks to (shot) Ali, (past prime) Norton, Shavers, Berbick and some other decent wins. Fighting 3 ATGs, 2 of them close to their primes... well, no way it was the weakest opposition, even at HW.

BTW, listing Holyfield (as someone did) is simply insane. Lewis (x2), Tyson (x2), Foreman, Holmes (OK, a little past prime), Quawi (x2) to mention only some ATGs he fought.

Agreed, but there is little doubt if his career had been 10 yrs earlier or 10 yrs later he would have been involved in some truly massive fights and been a massive worldwide name IMO

Of the top 25 P4p fighters on boxrec, I would say Holmes or Foster had the weakest opposition during their title run. I would say Foster would slightly beat out Holmes for weakest overall, when you consider the fighters Holmes faced AFTER he was champion. But looking through the top 25, all of them took on decent opposition, particularly when compared with some of the pampered champions of today

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes is a good answer. Analysis of his competition is pretty grim reading, & he qualifies as a legend in the eyes of virtually everyone...particularly himself

To me, nigh-on the best instance anyone could name would be Ricardo Lopez. His opposition was putrid at times, mediocre for the most part, & yet, I don't know that I can honestly say there's been a better fighter in my lifetime. He was that good, & his competition, comparatively, was that poor.

True but this will be a problem as there are never going to be that many 100lb men who fight for a living lol

I think Sullivan out of the heavies as far 'greats' go.

Alot of good guys on larry's resume. But whatever you
guys say.

dom74 wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

dom74 wrote:Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes is a good answer. Analysis of his competition is pretty grim reading, & he qualifies as a legend in the eyes of virtually everyone...particularly himself

To me, nigh-on the best instance anyone could name would be Ricardo Lopez. His opposition was putrid at times, mediocre for the most part, & yet, I don't know that I can honestly say there's been a better fighter in my lifetime. He was that good, & his competition, comparatively, was that poor.

True but this will be a problem as there are never going to be that many 100lb men who fight for a living lol

I like what someone once quipped of Lopez, "If you could make a 160lb. version of him, he could beat any fighter, in any weightclass..."

Context of the statement was any fighter of the day, made around 1998-99. Damn near true, as well. What a talent

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Holmes at least beat another great fighter in Norton..." - Dempsey

Norton wasn't ever that great, & he was old by the time Holmes fought him (& flatly refused to entertain the notion of ever fighting him again, I might add).

In any event, it hardly matters. Looking over Holmes' resume, it'd take a hell of a lot more than an ageing Norton to break ground on his CV. Six of his challengers (two of whom it could be quite reasonably argued decisioned him, & another of which almost knocked him out) had sixteen fights or fewer, & none of them, save Witherspoon, amounted to anything even close to special anyway. Beyond that, you have the ordinary LeDoux, lacklustre Frank, mediocre Evangelista, porcelain-jawed Zanon & company making up most of the rest. Who's the best fighter he beat during his tenure? I came up with one-dimensional wonders Shavers & Cooney, & perhaps a green Witherspoon.

People love to talk about Louis', "Bum Of The Month Club" --- usually, oblivious to its context --- but never, ever do you hear about this side of Holmes. It's not his fault, but he's a star candidate for the thread. An old Dempsey or washed-up Foreman wouldn't make up for that list, much less a past-it Norton.

I do think Bob Foster's a pretty handy shout, as well. Roy Jones' move to Light-Heavyweight also marked a severe downturn in quality of opposition

Are you serious . . there are Holmes bashers around these forums all the time trying to convince people he was ducking Greg Page

Yes Larry's comp overall was not too special but it was definitely strong enough to not be ranked as the worst when talking about great fighters.

Norton was in the twilight of his prime when he fought Holmes. A clear top 20-25 all time HW in my book, so I consider that fairly great. And Holmes 'refused' to fight Norton? Where do you get this garbage? The winner of Shavers-Norton was an elimination match; Shavers wo and Larry fought Earnie.

Anyway, taken in total Norton, Shavers (X2), Witherspoon, Cooney, Berbick, Mercer, Smith, Tiger Williams . .close match with a peak Evander when Larry was 42 . . . not a bad resume by any count.

Carlos Zarate only beat 4 fighters who were either the champ or in the Top 10. Only one (Zamaora) was that high of a quality fighter.
Khaosai Galaxy only beat 4 as well. None of the four were anything special.

Some people would consider them to be ATG's. At least they are on the short list for best fighter of their weight class.

Ambling Alp wrote:Carlos Zarate only beat 4 fighters who were either the champ or in the Top 10. Only one (Zamaora) was that high of a quality fighter.
Khaosai Galaxy only beat 4 as well. None of the four were anything special.

Some people would consider them to be ATG's. At least they are on the short list for best fighter of their weight class.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't consider them greats.

I have occasionally heard arguments for Zarate as being Mexico's greatest ever, & he is routinely in the nation's top five-to-seven.

giacomino wrote:Of the top 25 P4p fighters on boxrec, I would say Holmes or Foster had the weakest opposition during their title run. I would say Foster would slightly beat out Holmes for weakest overall, when you consider the fighters Holmes faced AFTER he was champion. But looking through the top 25, all of them took on decent opposition, particularly when compared with some of the pampered champions of today

I really like Larry, always have. but I think i would rate his level as comp as being at least as bad as any ATG I have seen.

I wonder if Rondon, Finnegan Tiger and Quarry to name the only Foster victims I remember, were not a better top 4 than Larry could claim for himself? anyone?

What two so called heavyweight All Time Greats never beat another Hall Of Fame fighter is his undisputed prime?