Fighters who beat the most Contenders

[Ambling Alp]

Thought I would do something a little different.

The Boxing Register (International Boxing Hall of Fame Official Record Book) lists the fights that the Hall of Famers had against fighters that were ranked Top 10 by Ring Magazine (or against the champion) at the time of the fight.

I added up how many wins each Hall of Famer had against a Ring Magazine Top 10 fighter or the champion. (Ring Magazine didn't start rankings until 1923, so obviously fighters from before then won't be included. The book was published in 2006, so anyone elected to the Hall of Fame after that won't be included either.)

This is an interesting yardstick that measure both quality and longevity. Of course there are flaws-A win over the top 10 contender counts as much as beating the champion, Rings Rating aren't perfect etc.)
Nevertheless, it still is pretty interesting.

Anyway, here are the 20 fighters who had the most of these wins and the number that they had in their career:

1. Ray Robinson 45
2. Archie Moore 43
3. Ezzard Charles 40
4. Emile Griffith 36
5. Manuel Ortiz 34
6. Henry Armstrong 33
6. Muhammad Ali 33
8. Ike Williams 31
8. Joe Louis 31
10. Willie Pep 27
11. Jimmy Bivins 25
12. Harold Johnson 24
12. Jake LaMotta 24
14. Jose Napoles 23
15. Joey Maxim 22
16. Kid Gavilan 21
16. Carlos Ortiz 21
18. Joe Brown 19
18. Charley Burley 19
18. Joey Giardello 19

Are there some fighters that you guys are surprised had so many wins over Top 10 fighters/Champions?
What great fighters is it surprising that didn't have enough and aren't on this list?

[-KOKid-]

The Boxing Register is littered with mistakes concerning the opponent rating and is not a reliable source for many of the fighters.
I know because I cross checked several boxers ratings with the original Ring ratings and in many cases they don't match up.

I suspect the guys who put together The Boxing Register only went by The Rings annual/year end ratings, not the monthly ratings, which would be the correct thing to do.

For instance, according to The Boxing Register, Cleveland Williams was not rated when he fought Muhammad Ali in 1966.
But in fact he was rated at no. 3.

But since he announced his retirement after the Ali loss he was dropped from the ratings and did not appear in the annual/year end ratings.

There are several more cases on this on Ali's record as well.
Same applies for Joe Louis (check thread on Louis vs. Retzlaff by Granberry).

[granberry]

The RING magazine began in the early 1920's.

Boxing existed before that.

[Idisagree]

I'm surprise the great Duran is not on that list. I will have to look more closely at his record.

One fighter that I feel does not get enough credit for his career is Carlos Ortiz. Duran had it easy at lightweight compare to the competition that Ortiz had. Ortiz competition blows out the water that of Duran by far at lightweight and yet he doesn't get the credit that he deserves imo.

[granberry]

I'm surprise the great Duran is not on that list. I will have to look more closely at his record.

One fighter that I feel does not get enough credit for his career is Carlos Ortiz. Duran had it easy at lightweight compare to the competition that Ortiz had. Ortiz competition blows out the water that of Duran by far at lightweight and yet he doesn't get the credit that he deserves imo.

I do not disagree.

I agree.

Ortiz could have fought in any time. He had everything.

[Ambling Alp]

The Boxing Register is littered with mistakes concerning the opponent rating and is not a reliable source for many of the fighters.
I know because I cross checked several boxers ratings with the original Ring ratings and in many cases they don't match up.

I suspect the guys who put together The Boxing Register only went by The Rings annual/year end ratings, not the monthly ratings, which would be the correct thing to do.

For instance, according to The Boxing Register, Cleveland Williams was not rated when he fought Muhammad Ali in 1966.
But in fact he was rated at no. 3.

But since he announced his retirement after the Ali loss he was dropped from the ratings and did not appear in the annual/year end ratings.

There are several more cases on this on Ali's record as well.
Same applies for Joe Louis (check thread on Louis vs. Retzlaff by Granberry).

I don't think that they just went by year end rankings. I checked some other instances where the guy retired after the fight and and the other still got credit for beating a contender:
Ali's win over Patterson counted as win over a Top 10 opponent for Ali, as did Buchanans over Laguna, Griffith's over Tiger Marciano's over Walcott, Monzons over Benvenuti, Tiger over Fullmer.

I'm sure there are some mistakes; like you pointed out with Joe Louis. Though still, it was pretty close; you counted 30 and I had him with 31. (btw thinks for the list you had of Joe Louis opponents rankings.)

Obviously this list is not perfect. As I mention before, it does not have anything before 1923 because Ring did not do rankings before then. It does not have recent (such as Roberto Duran)Hall of Famers because the book was published in 2006.

It does not mean that one guy is better than another becasue he has more wins on this list than another guy. however, it does give a ball park idea of how many good/great fighters a guy beat.

I just thought it would interesting to talk about something else for a change besides the Top 10 heavyweights or who would win some fantasy match.

For example, how many people would have guessed that Manuel Ortiz beat so many good fighters?

[-KOKid-]

I absolutely agree with you that it's an interesting topic.

I can cross check some of the fighters you list if you want - with the execpoin of a few issues in 1929 and 1931 and have every single issue of The Ring since 1928 (plus a few from 1922-27).

I can give you Muhammad Ali's stats right now:

1962
Alejandro Lavorante - No. 10
Archie Moore - No. 5

1963
Doug Jones - No. 3
Henry Cooper - No. 9

1964
Sonny Liston - World Heavyweight Champion

1965
Sonny Liston - No. 1
Floyd Patterson - No. 1

1966
George Chuvalo - No. 9
Henry Cooper - No. 4
Karl Mildenberger - No. 3
Cleveland Williams - No. 3

1967
Ernie Terell - No. 1
Zora Folley - No. 2

1970
Jerry Quarry - No. 1
Oscar Bonavena - No. 3

1971
Joe Frazier - World Heavyweight Champion - LOSS
Jimmy Ellis - No. 7

1972
Mac Foster - No. 6
Jerry Quarry - No.2
Floyd Patterson - No.3
Bob Foster - World Light-Heavyweight Champion

1973
Joe Bugner - No. 8
Ken Norton - No. 9 - LOSS
Ken Norton - No. 2

1974
Joe Frazier - No. 1
George Foreman - World Heavyweight Champion

1975
Chuck Wepner - No. 9
Ron Lyle - No. 8
Joe Bugner - No. 4
Joe Frazier - No. 2

1976
Jimmy Young - No. 3
Ken Norton - No. 2

1977
Ernie Shavers - No. 5

1978
Leon Spinks - No. 9 - LOSS
Leon Spinks - World Heavyweight Champion

1980
Larry Holmes - Wolrd Heavyweight Champion - LOSS

1981
Trevor Berbick - No.7 - LOSS

Record vs. top 10 rated opponents (incl. Light-Heavyweight Champion): 32-5

[Seamus]

I'm going to take a guess and say Jimmy McLarnin had to have had about 22 wins against ranked contenders. Not bad for a guy who only had 68 fights.

[Expug]

Some who come to mind.
Fritzie Zivic
Beau Jack
Billy Graham

The impressive thing about these fighters and some others in Alps list is that they didnt just beat contenders, they fought the best multiple times.
I think that gives them a leg up on some of the more recent/modern day fighters.
Fighting Robinson,Basilio,Lamotta,etc a couple times a year, is downright eye catching. Iron sharpens iron.

[granberry]

Take a look at Philadelphia Jack O'Brien's record:

Bob Fitzsimmons

Stanley Ketchel

Sam Langford

Jack Johnson

Kid McCoy

Tommy Burns

Joe Choynski

Peter Maher

Marvin Hart

Joe Walcott

Dixie Kid

Bobby Dobbs

Kid Carter

Jack Bonner

Tommy West

George Cole

Frank Craig

Young Peter Jackson

Jack Twin Sullivan

Fireman Jim Flynn

[Crease]

I think people should not be forgetting Rocky Marciano...

Marciano fought ALL the top contenders before Walcott give him a title shot.

[Seamus]

And that added up to how many ?

[Ambling Alp]

Marciano had four wins over ranked opponents before he won the title. He had 11 wins total over ranked opponents/champion.

As for some other fighters mentioned:
Beau Jack had 18
McLarnin had 13
Zivic had 12
Graham had 6

expug is right that the older fighters usually had more wins against ranked opponents than the more modern fighters. Once you get up to the 1980's, many of the top fighters were avoiding each other.
For example, Barry McGuigan only had four, Daniel Zarazoga only had four, Khaosai Galaxy only had three.

[Ezzard]

Great work, Alp

This is a great thread.

I really thought that Lloyd Marshall would be on that list. Also expected to see Holman Williams and Eusebio Pedroza.

[-KOKid-]

Here is a complete run-down of Sugar Ray Robinson's top 10 rated opponets and their exact rating when he fought them:


Sugar Ray Robinson first appears in The Ring ratings on March 11, 1941.
He debuts at no. 7 in the lightweight division.

1941
Sammy Angott - No. 1 (lightweight)
Maxie Shapiro - No. 10 (lightweight)
Fritzie Zivic - No. 1 (welterweight)

- Robinson debuts at no. 1 in the welterwight ratings after win over Zivic.

1942
Friztie Zivic - No. 3
Norman Rubio - No. 9
Marty Servo - No. 7
Sammy Angott - World Champion Lightweight
Tony Motisi - No. 9
Jake La Motta - No. 10 (middleweight)
Izzy Janazzo - No. 10
Izzy Janazzo - No. 10

1943
Jake La Motta - No. 6 (middleweight) - LOSS
Jackie Wilson - No. 3
Jake La Motta - No. 1 (middleweight)
Henry Armstrong - No. 3

1944
Vic Dellicurti - No. 10 (middleweight)

1945
Tommy Bell - No. 7
Jake La Motta - No. 3 (middleweight)
Jose Basora - No. 6 (middleweight)
Jimmy McDaniels - No. 6
Jake La Motta - No. 1 (middleweight)

1946
Sammy Angott - No. 7
Joe Curcio - No. 10
Tommy Bell - No. 3 (wins vacant Welterweight title)

1947
Georgie Abrams - No. 3 (middleweight)
Jimmy Doyle - No. 6

1948
Bernard Docusen - No. 1
Kid Gavilan - No. 1

1949
Kid Gavilan - No. 1
Steve Belloise - No. 2 (middleweight)

- Robinson debuts at No. 1 at middleweight after win over Belloise.
- He still continues to hold the welterweight championship.

1950
George Costner - No. 2
Robert Villemain - No. 3 (middleweight)
Charley Fusari - No. 5
Robert Villemain - No. 4 (middleweight)

1951
Jake La Motta - World Champion Middleweight
- Robinson vacates welterweight title after win over La Motta.
Randy Turpin - No. 1 - LOSS
Randy Turpin - Wolrd Champion Middleweight

1952
Carl "Bobo" Olson - No. 5
Rocky Graziano - No. 9
Joey Maxim - Wolrd Champion Light-Heavyweight - LOSS

- Robinson retires for 30 months after loss to Maxim.

1955
Rocky Castellani - No. 2
Carl "Bobo" Olson - world Champion Middleweight

1956
Carl "Bobo" Olson - No. 1

1957
Gene Fullmer - No. 1 - LOSS
Gene Fullmer - World Champion Middleweight
Carmen Basilio - world Champion Welterweight - LOSS

1958
Carmen Basilio - world Champion Middleweight

1959
- No fights vs. top contenders

1960
Paul Pender - No. 8 - LOSS
Paul Pender - World Champion Middleweight - LOSS
Gene Fullmer - No. 1 - DRAW

1961
Gene Fullmer - No. 1 - LOSS
Denny Moyer - No. 9

1962
Denny Moyer - No. 9 - LOSS
Terry Downes - No. 3 - LOSS

1963
Ralph Dupas - No. 3 (welterweight)
Joey Giardello - No. 3 - LOSS

1964
- No fights vs. top 10 contenders

1965
Stan Harrington - No. 9 - LOSS
Joey Archer - No. 4 - LOSS

- Robinson retires after loss to Archer.

Overall record vs. top 10 contenders/world champions: 44-13-1

[jimglen]

absolutely fantastic and incredible, SRR, Joe Louis and the many others... but I'd just like to through a little consideration into these figures.

First off, I agree with what Rick Farris said on the other thread about ratings being more of a guide than a literal accuracy which I whole heartly agree with, but also a consideration for and too other countries and nations.

For example in a 1939 Boxing News article re: Rings Annual Ratings, Boxing News "concluded" the same, that they were none-the-less a good measure, BUT they were for the most part soley American, almost (not exclusively) like an American top 10.

Boxing News also stated that they were at the very least entertaining and at worst "laughable"...

I too have to agree with this along with Rick Farris' (and others), opinion of ratings...
It was/IS literally impossible to rate dozens and even hundreds of fighters accurately, as many TOP Men from other nations were and are "left out" - IF these same fighters could have met more frequently against their American counterparts or as in some cases even met them at all, then the outcome would NOT have been a forth drawn conclusion. Especially the worlds Top Men from the Leading and Top boxing countries meeting as often as the American fighters enjoyed with each other!

This is absolutely true and you will find that such numbers were found most frequently among American fighters and NOT untill more readily travel was easier (1960s) and more available did these figures begin to spread out a bit more widely.

a very real and important consideration!

[Ezzard]

absolutely fantastic and incredible, SRR, Joe Louis and the many others... but I'd just like to through a little consideration into these figures.

First off, I agree with what Rick Farris said on the other thread about ratings being more of a guide than a literal accuracy which I whole heartly agree with, but also a consideration for and too other countries and nations.

For example in a 1939 Boxing News article re: Rings Annual Ratings, Boxing News "concluded" the same, that they were none-the-less a good measure, BUT they were for the most part soley American, almost (not exclusively) like an American top 10.

Boxing News also stated that they were at the very least entertaining and at worst "laughable"...

I too have to agree with this along with Rick Farris' (and others), opinion of ratings...
It was/IS literally impossible to rate dozens and even hundreds of fighters accurately, as many TOP Men from other nations were and are "left out" - IF these same fighters could have met more frequently against their American counterparts or as in some cases even met them at all, then the outcome would NOT have been a forth drawn conclusion. Especially the worlds Top Men from the Leading and Top boxing countries meeting as often as the American fighters enjoyed with each other!

This is absolutely true and you will find that such numbers were found most frequently among American fighters and NOT untill more readily travel was easier (1960s) and more available did these figures begin to spread out a bit more widely.

a very real and important consideration!

Good points, Jim

[Ambling Alp]

No question, the ratings aren't perfect. Still they are usually realistic and they are the best that we have to work with.

Ezz-Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall were elected into the Hall of Fame after the the last edition of the book was written, so I don't figures for them.
Pedroza had 7 wins over ranked opponents. Many of his title defenses were against fighters not ranked in the top 10.

[milmascaras1]

i'm really happy that mexican-american manuel ortiz made this list. this is a very underrated ex-world champion who had 19 successful title defenses. it should come as no surprise that he's a member of the more prestigous IBHOF.

[granberry]

i'm really happy that mexican-american manuel ortiz made this list. this is a very underrated ex-world champion who had 19 successful title defenses. it should come as no surprise that he's a member of the more prestigous IBHOF.

Manuel Ortiz vs Luis Castillo III

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziOfM_Abow

[Idisagree]

No question, the ratings aren't perfect. Still they are usually realistic and they are the best that we have to work with.

Ezz-Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall were elected into the Hall of Fame after the the last edition of the book was written, so I don't figures for them.
Pedroza had 7 wins over ranked opponents. Many of his title defenses were against fighters not ranked in the top 10.

I always argue with people over Pedroza's record. For me Pedroza is way over-rated. I compare his career to that of Samuel Serrano.

[Ezzard]

No question, the ratings aren't perfect. Still they are usually realistic and they are the best that we have to work with.

Ezz-Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall were elected into the Hall of Fame after the the last edition of the book was written, so I don't figures for them.
Pedroza had 7 wins over ranked opponents. Many of his title defenses were against fighters not ranked in the top 10.

Ahh, makes sense...

[milmascaras1]

i don't know about eusebio pedroza being overrated! i think he was an excelent champion with a bunch of successful title defenses. i would have loved to see him unify with salvador sanchez. i think sanchez would have won but it wouldn't have been easy. pedroza knew every dirty trick in the book.

[milmascaras1]

not to mention that pedroza had 18 successful title defenses which i believe is the record!

[Ezzard]

Pedroza was a great fighter but for whatever reason didn't get the covergae he deserved.