BoxRec

Who were the best fighters who beat themself? Whether from drug use, poor lifestyle, prison, being lazy...who were the guys who had it all in ability and will never be mentioned anywhere near a top all-time list because they wasted it all.

Here is my list. I know I am missing many guys but just to get the topic started:
(No particular order)

Riddick Bowe
Tony Tucker
Pernell Whitaker (I struggle saying him because he was still a great, but with his issues there is still the 'how great could he have been'?)
Ike Ibeabuchi
Hector Camacho
Michael Dokes

Billy Bello

Bernard Mays

Jimmy Young

granberry wrote:Billy Bello

Bernard Mays

Jimmy Young

Can you elaborate on Bernard Mays? I am not familiar.

Zab Judah also gets added to my list. If stupidity is allowed as a reason.

jrc26 wrote:

granberry wrote:Billy Bello

Bernard Mays

Jimmy Young

Can you elaborate on Bernard Mays? I am not familiar.

Zab Judah also gets added to my list. If stupidity is allowed as a reason.

Bernard Mays was the most gifted fighter at the Kronk gym at one point in time.

He was tall, fast as lightning, and a dangerous puncher.

Mays was an alchoholic.

He was addicted, of all things, to beer.

Mays was downhill physically by the time he turned pro.

His pro record was 26 wins (15 by KO), 1 loss, and 1 draw.

His last fight was in 1985.

He died in 1994 at the age of 33.

BLLY BELLO was a wonderfully gifted New York City fighter.

He had breathtaking boxing ability.

Those who knew of him had high hopes for his future success.

Bello was a heroin addict.

He had one TV fight, against Gaspar Ortega.

Bello showed his ability in the early rounds and then ran out of gas.

He lost a split decision to Ortega, with two officials scoring the fight 5-4-1 for Ortega, and one judge scoring it 5-4-1 for Bello.

Bello died of a heroin overdose less than two weeks after he fought Ortega.

He was 21.

How long can someone be doing heroin, train and actually fight effectively? Was he already pretty far gone when he lost this fight? I really have no idea how these dynamics can be mixed. I think I've always imagined that you simply could not be at all effective as a pro fighter if you are in the throws of such an addiction. But that is purely a guess.

Mustapha Muhammad & Toney- Lazy
Tapia- Drugs

Good mention of Mays by Granberry, he was a spectacular amateur

BoxBuzz wrote:How long can someone be doing heroin, train and actually fight effectively? Was he already pretty far gone when he lost this fight? I really have no idea how these dynamics can be mixed. I think I've always imagined that you simply could not be at all effective as a pro fighter if you are in the throws of such an addiction. But that is purely a guess.

Until they are 21 in Bello's case, I guess.

I know of top level kick boxers that use cocaine to a great deal,
PE's, binge drinking in their down times and they still manage
to train hard and perfom at a decent level...until they hit their
mid 30s..

Heroin however seems to have a life sapping nature to it.

Its sad. I have no idea why some are seduced by drug or drink,
I suppose it fills a gap in their life.

Jimmy Young was on bad drugs beginning with after the Foreman fight, the last fight where his longtime trainer Bob Brown was able to control him.

By the time of the Norton fight, Brown was dying of kidney trouble and unable to get Young to run, go to bed etc.

Once Brown was gone that was the end for Young as the trash from his neighborhood took over.

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars," was the perplexed comment I heard more than once around Frazier's gym as Young had just walked by.

For the Cooney "fight" Young didn't train a single day, and his own trainers gave him his drugs earlier on the day of the "fight."

He was out of it against Ocassio twice. I could tell by seeing him in his corner before the fights started.

Against Greg Page he didn't throw a punch until the final (12th) round,
His feeble-minded manager at that time, a Philadelphia lawyer who had had no connection with boxing, told me that Young "had a bad cold" before the fight.
The "cold" was cocaine.

While Brown was alive Young had four significant fights in non drug condition:

Ron Lyle

Ali

Ron Lyle

Foreman

granberry wrote:Jimmy Young was on bad drugs beginning with after the Foreman fight, the last fight where his longtime trainer Bob Brown was able to control him.

By the time of the Norton fight, Brown was dying of kidney trouble and unable to get Young to run, go to bed etc.

Once Brown was gone that was the end for Young as the trash from his neighborhood took over.

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars," was the perplexed comment I heard more than once around Frazier's gym as Young had just walked by.

For the Cooney "fight" Young didn't train a single day, and his own trainers gave him his drugs earlier on the day of the "fight."

He was out of it against Ocassio twice. I could tell by seeing him in his corner before the fights started.

Against Greg Page he didn't throw a punch until the final (12th) round,
His feeble-minded manager at that time, a Philadelphia lawyer who had had no connection with boxing, told me that Young "had a bad cold" before the fight.
The "cold" was cocaine.

While Brown was alive Young had four significant fights in non drug condition:

Ron Lyle

Ali

Ron Lyle

Foreman

Great insight into Young. I am going to pick up some fights of his, besides the 3-4 big fights I have seen. Has anyone seen any sort of documentary, book, or in depth magazine article about him you can recommend? I would like to hear more about him.

I don't know if this is true, or just perception, but it seems like heavyweights seem to struggle more? Maybe because they don't have to make weight so that is an excuse right there. Or maybe because they were generally more famous 20-30 years ago than the other divisions.

jrc26 wrote:Who were the best fighters who beat themself? Whether from drug use, poor lifestyle, prison, being lazy...who were the guys who had it all in ability and will never be mentioned anywhere near a top all-time list because they wasted it all.

Here is my list. I know I am missing many guys but just to get the topic started:
(No particular order)

Riddick Bowe
Tony Tucker
Pernell Whitaker (I struggle saying him because he was still a great, but with his issues there is still the 'how great could he have been'?)
Ike Ibeabuchi
Hector Camacho
Michael Dokes

I just knew this rubbish was coming. Top-ten all-time squandered talent? Yeah. (expletive deleted by mod). Right.

The most over-rated pug I'll never stop hearing about. Gimme a break with this guy, already. Whitaker, incidentally, will be mentioned in, not just near, every credible all-timers list, regardless of whether he reached his maximum potential or not.

Okay, so you think Ibeabuchi was a great talent. Fine. I can see that. You're gonna tell me he's one of the ten best IN HISTORY in this category? I'm so sick of this pug's name.

...lew jenkins..amazing he got as far as he did considering he was a wild man with an alcohol problem....so imagine how well he would have done if he hadn't messed up his mind and body. his punch and courage took him to the lightweight title.

They say Ketchel trained on whiskey and whores.

Dingleberry wrote:They say Ketchel trained on whiskey and whores.

Beats road work.

The Gifted One, Kirkland Laing

Benny Lynch...

Aurelio Herrera

the great Aaron Pryor

granberry wrote:Jimmy Young was on bad drugs beginning with after the Foreman fight, the last fight where his longtime trainer Bob Brown was able to control him.

By the time of the Norton fight, Brown was dying of kidney trouble and unable to get Young to run, go to bed etc.

Once Brown was gone that was the end for Young as the trash from his neighborhood took over.

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars," was the perplexed comment I heard more than once around Frazier's gym as Young had just walked by.

For the Cooney "fight" Young didn't train a single day, and his own trainers gave him his drugs earlier on the day of the "fight."

He was out of it against Ocassio twice. I could tell by seeing him in his corner before the fights started.

Against Greg Page he didn't throw a punch until the final (12th) round,
His feeble-minded manager at that time, a Philadelphia lawyer who had had no connection with boxing, told me that Young "had a bad cold" before the fight.
The "cold" was cocaine.

While Brown was alive Young had four significant fights in non drug condition:

Ron Lyle

Ali

Ron Lyle

Foreman

After sparring one day at the gym I trained at in Chicago in 1989, a fighter I knew walked up and asked me if I knew who that guy was standing over there. I looked over and saw a guy who looked like he might be a neighborhood guy. This neighborhood wasnt Beverly Hills either. The guy looked down and out. Maybe confused also. I said I had no idea who he was.
The guy told me it was former contender Jimmy Young.I told the guy he was full of sh.t. I didnt believe it. The man in question was way out of shape and didnt look like he was doing well at all.
He swore up and down it was Jimmy Young. I wonder looking back if it was really him.Sounds as though it just may have been. Its sad how things turned out.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

jrc26 wrote:Who were the best fighters who beat themself? Whether from drug use, poor lifestyle, prison, being lazy...who were the guys who had it all in ability and will never be mentioned anywhere near a top all-time list because they wasted it all.

Here is my list. I know I am missing many guys but just to get the topic started:
(No particular order)

Riddick Bowe
Tony Tucker
Pernell Whitaker (I struggle saying him because he was still a great, but with his issues there is still the 'how great could he have been'?)
Ike Ibeabuchi
Hector Camacho
Michael Dokes

I just knew this rubbish was coming. Top-ten all-time squandered talent? Yeah. Fvcking. Right.

The most over-rated pug I'll never stop hearing about. Gimme a break with this guy, already. Whitaker, incidentally, will be mentioned in, not just near, every credible all-timers list, regardless of whether he reached his maximum potential or not.

Okay, so you think Ibeabuchi was a great talent. Fine. I can see that. You're gonna tell me he's one of the ten best IN HISTORY in this category? I'm so sick of this pug's name.

A little angry there buddy? I didn't say he was a top 10...notice I didn't name 10 fighters genius? My list was just to get the topic started. Calm the fornicate down. I know Australia has a gene pool that just spits out boxing talent like Fenech, Tszyu, and....and....ummmm...Joe Bugner?

Seriously...chill the fukk out.

As for Whitaker he actually accomplished and demonstrated so much in his career it's hard to imagine he squandered much. If he did (and I agree he did to some degree) then it becomes a compliment to him because he's close enough to being an all time great without the "how much did he sqaunder" even being mentioned.

BoxBuzz wrote: As for Whitaker he actually accomplished and demonstrated so much in his career it's hard to imagine he squandered much. If he did (and I agree he did to some degree) then it becomes a compliment to him because he's close enough to being an all time great without the "how much did he sqaunder" even being mentioned.

I agree which is why I parenthetically wrote what I did next to his name. I have always said he is one of a short list of most talented fighters I have seen. I guess the reason I mentioned him is because of the 'what if'? He is certainly in the top 100...75...maybe 50. If he had lived clean and gone all the way with his career could he have been top 10? That is the only reason I mention his name. Just curious how much everyone else thought he squandered of his career, if any at all.

Once again the 5 names I mentioned was not my top 10 list, as Irene seems to struggle to comprehend...it was simply some names that jumped in my mind to start the topic off.

I see my post was deleted quietly, without my being told.

Thief in the night business. How classy.

Although Douglas could be good when he brought it all to the table, surely Tysons lifestyle at the time makes him the no1 name for this thread..

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I see my post was deleted quietly, without my being told.

Thief in the night business. How classy.

When you actually write a classy post rather than acting like a child, I am sure they will do you the courtesy of telling you before they delete your post. Of course if you are acting like an adult then they won't need to delete your posts now will they? Are you sure you are 26 years old? Maybe you should start in the kiddy section and work your way up to adult message board conversation where you can disagree and discuss without resorting to names that get tossed around on elementary school playgrounds. This will likely never happen, but maybe as you work your way to your 20,000 post you can moderate your ratio of childish posts from 50% down to 30%. You would be doing everyone a favor. ;;-)