BoxRec

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Let the fight begin, gentlemen

In fairness to Holmes, he is justified in calling anyone he pleases a fraud or phony...that's a man's priviledge when he is as genuine as Holmes is. No one could ever accuse of Holmes of being two-faced. A genuine, honest, salt-of-the-Earth wanker, & he is only too happy to present his real self to the world.

Guy's an asshole, right through to his bootlaces. It's rare to stereotype someone & truly mean it when you say it, but Holmes proves it over & over & over.

You could write a book just from Larry Holmes politically incorrect statements and answers to questions.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Guy's an asshole, right through to his bootlaces. It's rare to stereotype someone & truly mean it when you say it, but Holmes proves it over & over & over.

Truer words were never spoken, the quintessential asshole. Few fights have pleased me more than Tyson-Holmes.

hhaehre wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Guy's an asshole, right through to his bootlaces. It's rare to stereotype someone & truly mean it when you say it, but Holmes proves it over & over & over.

Truer words were never spoken, the quintessential asshole. Few fights have pleased me more than Tyson-Holmes.

Agreed...

According to Larry Holmes on ESPN RINGSIDE,Tyson knocked him out because his(Holmes)arm was caught up in the ropes.
He even repeated it again,his arm was caught up in the ropes.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:In fairness to Holmes, he is justified in calling anyone he pleases a fraud or phony...that's a man's priviledge when he is as genuine as Holmes is. No one could ever accuse of Holmes of being two-faced. A genuine, honest, salt-of-the-Earth wanker, & he is only too happy to present his real self to the world.

Guy's an asshole, right through to his bootlaces. It's rare to stereotype someone & truly mean it when you say it, but Holmes proves it over & over & over.

Ive rarely heard someone articulate so clearly the true essence of larry holmes.

mugabi wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:In fairness to Holmes, he is justified in calling anyone he pleases a fraud or phony...that's a man's priviledge when he is as genuine as Holmes is. No one could ever accuse of Holmes of being two-faced. A genuine, honest, salt-of-the-Earth wanker, & he is only too happy to present his real self to the world.

Guy's an asshole, right through to his bootlaces. It's rare to stereotype someone & truly mean it when you say it, but Holmes proves it over & over & over.

Ive rarely heard someone articulate so clearly the true essence of larry holmes.

He is utterly an irreedemable fvckwit --- truly. I even feel a little uneasy speaking of such a revered figure of the sport in those terms, but as a man, he's fvcking garbage, & it has to be said. I cringed listening to the obligatory laughter of the crowd as he ranted & raved about yet another historian ranking Foreman ahead of him. Tough sh!t, Larry. You were always the ugly duckling. Nothing's changed.

Brutu wrote:According to Larry Holmes on ESPN RINGSIDE,Tyson knocked him out because his(Holmes)arm was caught up in the ropes.
He even repeated it again,his arm was caught up in the ropes.

Holmes in denial? Gee, imagine that.

He was gone. I bet he really believes his own bullsh!t, too. That he would've won. Never mind. The whole world dismisses yet another of his obscenely biased takes.

No one is going to weep when this guy passes on. Diabetes should come calling before too long, by the looks of his ever-swelling gut & triple chin.

I never really liked Holmes.

But then I would watch him fight. In his prime, he was truly a gifted heavyweight and, I thought, entertaining to watch. I would recall how he really started with no advantages - no Olympic Gold Medal for him - and how he had to fight his way to the top. I would see the camera pan to his wife after the fight. It was clear that she adored him, and I'd always read he was a good father and husband. I'd start to feel good about Holmes.

And then somebody would stick a microphone in his face, and he'd open that mouth . . .

No, I never really liked Larry Holmes.

raylawpc wrote:I never really liked Holmes.

But then I would watch him fight. In his prime, he was truly a gifted heavyweight and, I thought, entertaining to watch. I would recall how he really started with no advantages - no Olympic Gold Medal for him - and how he had to fight his way to the top. I would see the camera pan to his wife after the fight. It was clear that she adored him, and I'd always read he was a good father and husband. I'd start to feel good about Holmes.

And then somebody would stick a microphone in his face, and he'd open that mouth . . .

No, I never really liked Larry Holmes.

Yeah, I didn't like him either, and I always rooted against him, but damn he was good.

I will try to be objective. Larry never felt he got his due and then when he was deprived unfairly, at least in his mind, of his 49th victory at the hands of a puffed up light heavyweight, he became apoplectic with rage; a rage that exists to this day. He can't strike out at Ali , although he does obliquely, because of Ali's condition and his place in history. So Big George is the target of his ire.

I wonder how history would have turned out if he beat Spinks. If he won a gimme fight after and retired 50-0 it would be interesting to see how that would have affected his legacy and Rocky's. With all due respect would the aura of Rocky loom as large if he was 49-1 or 48-2.
Interesting to ponder.

As a postscript Larry escaped with some painfully close decisions and he showed no inclination to retire so it's not unfathomable he would not have remain undefeated.

ThatOne wrote:I wonder how history would have turned out if he beat Spinks. If he won a gimme fight after and retired 50-0 it would be interesting to see how that would have affected his legacy and Rocky's. With all due respect would the aura of Rocky loom as large if he was 49-1 or 48-2.

Of course it wouldn't. At least not to the typical fan.

ThatOne wrote:As a postscript Larry escaped with some painlessly close decisions and he showed no inclination to retire so it's not unfathomable he would not have remain undefeated.

Yeah, the Spoon and Williams fights could easily have gone against him. Even more amazing were the close calls when he got clocked by Snipes and Shavers, especially Shavers. He sure had top flight recuperative powers.

The Great John L wrote:

ThatOne wrote:I wonder how history would have turned out if he beat Spinks. If he won a gimme fight after and retired 50-0 it would be interesting to see how that would have affected his legacy and Rocky's. With all due respect would the aura of Rocky loom as large if he was 49-1 or 48-2.

Of course it wouldn't. At least not to the typical fan.

ThatOne wrote:As a postscript Larry escaped with some painlessly close decisions and he showed no inclination to retire so it's not unfathomable he would not have remain undefeated.

Yeah, the Spoon and Williams fights could easily have gone against him. Even more amazing were the close calls when he got clocked by Snipes and Shavers, especially Shavers. He sure had top flight recuperative powers.

Most fighters are the beneficiaries and victims of questionable decisions. In Larry's case the questionable decision occurred in what was arguably the biggest fight of his life. However if he wasn't the beneficiary of a couple of questionable decisions prior to that he would not have been in that position in the first place.

ThatOne wrote:Most fighters are the beneficiaries and victims of questionable decision. In Larry's case the questionable decision occurred in what was the biggest fight of his life. However if he wasn't the beneficiary of a couple of questionable decisions he would not have been in that position in the first place.

Are you refering to the Norton fight? If yes, you are correct that the fight was very close. Interestingly, not many ever mention the fact that Norton's win over Young was also close and contested, so it could have been Young and Holmes fighting for... well, whatever it was that Norton had been handed after barely squeeking by Young.

Everyone also seems to forget that the legitimate title out of that mess was actually the one that Tate ended up with. He actually won a tournament of ranked HWs and was awarded the title that Ali vacated when he retired.

Of course, as you noted, virtually every fighter has a few contested decisions in their careers.

The Great John L wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Most fighters are the beneficiaries and victims of questionable decision. In Larry's case the questionable decision occurred in what was the biggest fight of his life. However if he wasn't the beneficiary of a couple of questionable decisions he would not have been in that position in the first place.

Are you refering to the Norton fight? If yes, you are correct that the fight was very close. Interestingly, not many ever mention the fact that Norton's win over Young was also close and contested, so it could have been Young and Holmes fighting for... well, whatever it was that Norton had been handed after barely squeeking by Young.

Everyone also seems to forget that the legitimate title out of that mess was actually the one that Tate ended up with. He actually won a tournament of ranked HWs and was awarded the title that Ali vacated when he retired.

Of course, as you noted, virtually every fighter has a few contested decisions in their careers.

I was referring to the Spinks fight; the chance to be 49-0. His win over a fading but not totally faded Norton for the championship was painfully close. I remember betting on Norton in a bar pool but losing. I bet on him for the UD. Everybody else was betting Holmes by KO.

Holmes ' personnae reminds me somewhat of Mayweather. Ray Leonard, Ali, Holmes, and Mayweather were all trash talkers. I think the reason Leonard and Ali get a pass is because it was mostly tongue in cheek. However there were instances where Ali went too far. But where it was the exception for Ali it was the rule for Holmes and Mayweather. Ali and Ray came off as court jesters where as PBF and Holmes just come off as mean.

ThatOne wrote:I was referring to the Spinks fight; the chance to be 49-0. His win over a fading but not totally faded Norton for the championship was painfully close. I remember betting on Norton in a bar pool but losing. I bet on him for the UD. Everybody else was betting Holmes by KO.

Yeah, I thought Holmes pulled it out, but it could have gone either way. Unfortunately, I bet on Norton in that one.

So, we've got three that went his way; Norton, Spoon and Williams, and the two he lost to Spinks. That means he was 3-2 in close decisions prior to his first retirement. Certainly not the (near?) perfect record of Ali in close decisions.

The Great John L wrote:

ThatOne wrote:I was referring to the Spinks fight; the chance to be 49-0. His win over a fading but not totally faded Norton for the championship was painfully close. I remember betting on Norton in a bar pool but losing. I bet on him for the UD. Everybody else was betting Holmes by KO.

Yeah, I thought Holmes pulled it out, but it could have gone either way. Unfortunately, I bet on Norton in that one.

So, we've got three that went his way; Norton, Spoon and Williams, and the two he lost to Spinks. That means he was 3-2 in close decisions prior to his first retirement. Certainly not the (near?) perfect record of Ali in close decisions.

If you include Norton ll and Jones as gifts then those were most win fights. However a loss to Young or a loss in Norton lll doesn't really impact his legacy.



What becomes of Rocky's legacy without his hotly contested decision over Roland LaStarza?

I also think these decisions beg a discussion of scoring. The categories for scoring are

-Clean punching

-Effective aggression

-Defense

-Ring Generalship

For instance the Leonard-Hagler decision is hotly contested with many claiming all the dancing Ray did in the first six rounds was for naught because his jabs weren't hurting Hagler . However they were clean punches and it was up to Hagler to display his ring generalship by cutting off the ring which he didn't. In other words he lost those first six rounds when Leonard was dancing around him, jabbing him in the face; even if they weren't hurting him.

MachoMan09 wrote:I rank Larry as the second best heavyweight ever, after Joe Louis, but he's a bitter man, no doubt.

And what would you base that on?. Not His stellar record of 2-4 against IBHOFERS*and of those two wins one boxer was fading and the other boxer was totally faded.



*I'll include Tyson as an HOFER as he will surely be inducted as soon as he becomes eligble.

ThatOne wrote:

MachoMan09 wrote:I rank Larry as the second best heavyweight ever, after Joe Louis, but he's a bitter man, no doubt.

And what would you base that on?. Not His stellar record of 2-4 against IBHOFERS*and of those two wins one boxer was fading and the other boxer was totally faded.



*I'll include Tyson as an HOFER as he will surely be inducted as soon as he becomes eligble.

Tyson was voted this weekend into the WBHOF.

raylawpc wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

MachoMan09 wrote:I rank Larry as the second best heavyweight ever, after Joe Louis, but he's a bitter man, no doubt.

And what would you base that on?. Not His stellar record of 2-4 against IBHOFERS*and of those two wins one boxer was fading and the other boxer was totally faded.



*I'll include Tyson as an HOFER as he will surely be inducted as soon as he becomes eligble.

Tyson was voted this weekend into the WBHOF.

Thank you. Baseball, football, and basketball are content with one Hall Of Fame. Boxing has to have two.

With all these governing bodies things get confusing. PBF's victory over Sugar Shane wasn't even for the championship because PBF wouldn't pay the sanctioning fee.


P.S. I hope your stress test goes or went well.

Holy hasn't been inducted into the HOF either but that's a mere formality.

ThatOne wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

ThatOne wrote: And what would you base that on?. Not His stellar record of 2-4 against IBHOFERS*and of those two wins one boxer was fading and the other boxer was totally faded.



*I'll include Tyson as an HOFER as he will surely be inducted as soon as he becomes eligble.

Tyson was voted this weekend into the WBHOF.

Thank you. Baseball, football, and basketball are content with one Hall Of Fame. Boxing has to have two.

With all these governing bodies things get confusing. PBF's victory over Sugar Shane wasn't even for the championship because PBF wouldn't pay the sanctioning fee.


P.S. I hope your stress test goes or went well.

Thanks. My stress test came back normal.