BoxRec

I was thinking (dangerous, I know)-- I've seen a lot of all-time rankings over the years but over the last 25 years or so they seem virtually unanimous on one issue-- namely, who were the four greatest white heavyweights of all-time?

Those 4 names are, in chronological order: Jim Jeffries, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, and Rocky Marciano.

Of course, people disagree violently about how to rank them 1-4, and how they rank against the African American heavyweight greats, but rarely have I seen another white heavyweight inserted in the list.

After the top 4, it's wide open. Old-time afficianados will include John L. Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, sometimes Tom Sharkey and Jess Willard. Guys who prefer the "classic era" will bring up the likes of Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, and Max Baer. More recent considerations include Jerry Quarry, and the Klitschko brothers -- and sometimes even guys like Gerry Cooney and Gerrie Coetzee.

But Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, and Marciano are invariably the top 4.

Anyone on this board disagree?

As much as it pains me, I imagine that the K boys just might enter that realm at some point.

I don't think Dempsey counts cos he has Cherokee in him. If ur gonna count Dempsey then why not Clay and Louis??

gambler49 wrote:I don't think Dempsey counts cos he has Cherokee in him. If ur gonna count Dempsey then why not Clay and Louis??

... because Dempsey, whether he had a sliver of Cherokee in him or not, was clearly Caucasion, which Ali and Louis were not.

I know what gambler is saying though... Race is a social construct. Different cultures categorise race differently. It's a complex issue. Once you start digging around the definitions of race it very quickly starts to unravel.

For the sake of argument and to keep Mr E's thread going these 4 would tend to be at the top. If there was a 5th it would probably be Schmeling??

Wat about Figg?

If going back to bare knucklers i would pick Broughton over Figg. and Sullivan over them again. Offcourse this is dependant on what you put in the word ''great'' .

Panzerfaust wrote:If going back to bare knucklers i would pick Broughton over Figg. and Sullivan over them again. Offcourse this is dependant on what you put in the word ''great'' .

I agree with Broughton over Figg and Sullivan over them both.

Ezzard wrote:I know what gambler is saying though... Race is a social construct. Different cultures categorise race differently. It's a complex issue. Once you start digging around the definitions of race it very quickly starts to unravel.

This statement is, of course, 100% true and I have zero interest in fleshing it out fully.

Regarding Dempsey in particular, he liked to claim that he had a little Cherokee blood in him and of course it sounded cool but, if I remember correctly, Dempsey himself was never entirely clear from whence that lineage derived, giving conflicting answers over time as to whether it came from his mother's side or his father's side. Does anyone know if Dempsey really did have any Cherokee in him?

I THINK JERRY QUARRY MUST BE IN THERE WITH A SHOUT

gambler49 wrote:I don't think Dempsey counts cos he has Cherokee in him. If ur gonna count Dempsey then why not Clay and Louis??

That's ridiculous. Is Duran not Panamanian, because he has some Mexican blood (much more than Dempsey had Cherokee?) Of course not --- Duran is a Panamanian legend. Anyway, everyone's got a little of this, or a little of that. To say Jack Dempsey, "wasn't white," is silly.

Anyway, I wouldn't disagree with those four being the men at the top of the tree too harshly. I can see cases for others, but those four are a fine choice.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

gambler49 wrote:I don't think Dempsey counts cos he has Cherokee in him. If ur gonna count Dempsey then why not Clay and Louis??

That's ridiculous. Is Duran not Panamanian, because he has some Mexican blood (much more than Dempsey had Cherokee?) Of course not --- Duran is a Panamanian legend. Anyway, everyone's got a little of this, or a little of that. To say Jack Dempsey, "wasn't white," is silly.

Anyway, I wouldn't disagree with those four being the men at the top of the tree too harshly. I can see cases for others, but those four are a fine choice.

Did u see Dempsey inda Willard fight? Cos he looked darker then Louis.
Maybe even darker then James fkn Toney.

Again --- is Duran not Panamanian?

What is 'white' ?

Why are some people considered a minority when they
have more 'white' in them.

I get confused and interested when it comes to peoples race
definitions.

...louis and ali weren't Caucasian?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Again --- is Duran not Panamanian?

Mate, that's a nationality not a race...

It's analagous.

Jeffries, Demspey, and both Klitschko's are my pick. Honroable mention to Marciano, and Tunney.

Picking Dempsey over Tunney is like picking Liston over Ali, or you pick your analogy. They were in the ring twice, and Tunney won both. Its not like Dempsey was too old at the time. Rocky didn't have the competition, but not his fault. An aging Walcott was beating the tar out of him but one punch from Rocky ended it in the 13th.

I will start mentioning the K brothers when they give up their fear of needles and quit refusing any type of steroid testing. I call them the Drago brothers.

Badhusker wrote:Picking Dempsey over Tunney is like picking Liston over Ali, or you pick your analogy. They were in the ring twice, and Tunney won both. Its not like Dempsey was too old at the time. Rocky didn't have the competition, but not his fault. An aging Walcott was beating the tar out of him but one punch from Rocky ended it in the 13th.

Except Dempsey was old & past his best. In fact, in their first fight, he was also battling three full years of inactivity (which I notice counts when it's Ali) & a severe stomach illness.

I think Dempsey was 30 or 31 in their first fight, and retired at 32 after their second. Tunney was a couple of years younger. I will give on the first lost due to illness and layoff, but the second was no fluke, another UD. Even with the long count, Tunney could have got up at anytime so that was not a factor. Both were very good fights. I just think Tunney never got the recognition he deserved, avenging his only loss after going 66 or 67-1. I am a big Dempsey fan as well as Tunney. Both were great champions. At least Dempsey got a tropical fish named after him!

By, "old," I'm not literally inferring Dempsey was an aged fighter. Hell, Tunney was only two years his junior. I am saying --- Dempsey's peak was clearly past him, even if he remained dangerous.

Fair due to Tunney --- he completely & comprehensively schooled Dempsey, & in the process, mounted an excellent case to state he would've beaten Dempsey at any stage in their careers, though not a case I agree with.

You will not find someone who agrees with you more strongly on this board (as those familiar with me can attest) on the subject of Tunney. A brilliant, brilliant boxer, & my personal pick as the greatest 175lber. of them all. I'd make him only the slimmest of underdogs against the Dempsey who savaged Fulton, Willard & Firpo.

What about Ingo?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Again --- is Duran not Panamanian?

being panamanian is a nationality not a race...