BoxRec

Clay
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Johnson
Foreman
Frazier
Tyson
Dempsey
Jeffries

Clay only had one championship fight. No way he makes the list.

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Holmes
Dempsey
Frazier
Marciano
Liston
Tyson
Johnson

Now that's a list that makes some degree of sense.

Ive never made a list like this to be honest.

I shall attempt to...

should the criteria be...

best at head to head?
best achievements?
best as reign as champion?
or best in order of my favourites?

Robinson wrote:Ive never made a list like this to be honest.

I shall attempt to...

should the criteria be...

best at head to head?
best achievements?
best as reign as champion?
or best in order of my favourites?

a combination of da 1st 3.......

Oh I shall have a crack at it then...

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Lewis
J Johnson
Liston
Marciano

You know I've noticed it's always Louis or Ali heading most lists.

And I'm in the same boat having them both at the top of my lists as well. But there is something interesting about these lists.

They always contain victims of Ali. Almost always 3. That's 30% of the field, and one sparring partner that beat him when the young understudy eclipsed the "master".

They contain NO victims of Louis. Never, not once have I seen someone Joe beat in anyones top ten list. And usually at least one fella who beat him sometimes 2. Hmm I'm trying to think if I've ever seen Baer or Schmeling in anyones top ten.....maybe but I can't remember it.

Not sure that really means much, but it does seem to be repetitive.

BoxBuzz wrote:You know I've noticed it's always Louis or Ali heading most lists.

And I'm in the same boat having them both at the top of my lists as well. But there is something interesting about these lists.

They always contain victims of Ali. Almost always 3. That's 30% of the field, and one sparring partner that beat him when the young understudy eclipsed the "master".

They contain NO victims of Louis. Never, not once have I seen someone Joe beat in anyones top ten list. And usually at least one fella who beat him sometimes 2. Hmm I'm trying to think if I've ever seen Baer or Schmeling in anyones top ten.....maybe but I can't remember it.

Not sure that really means much, but it does seem to be repetitive.

There u go!
Thats y Clay/Ali is #1

Walcott is usually in people's top 15 and Schmeling and Baer are (at the least) usually in people's top 20. Ali without a doubt has the best HW resume in history but Louis was the more consistent performer. I think putting either at #1 is perfectly acceptable.

My top 30:

1) Louis

2) Ali

3) Johnson

4) Dempsey

5) Foreman (I can see why Holmes fans would be upset but Larry's weak comp hurts him here . . Larry's best victory was his war with Norton while Foreman crushed a prime Norton, and he has the very big win over Frazier. Hell, after Norton I'm not sure I'd rate any of Larry's victories over the Lyle Foreman beat . . plus he gets an extra shove for winning the legitimate title at 45 years old)

6) Holmes

7) Frazier

8) Marciano

9) Liston

10) Jefferies

11) Holyfield (Lennox was slightly more consistent but Evander has the better top wins and their rematch convinces me a peak Holyfield clearly wins a head to head)

12) Lewis

13) Tyson

14) Walcott

15) Charles

16) Schmeling

17) Baer

18) Norton

19) Wills

20) Sharkey

21) Patterson

21) Jeannette

22) McVey

23) Quarry

24) Bivins

25) Fulton (highly under-rated fighter)

26) Terrell

27) Bowe

28) Ellis

29) Willard

30) Shavers

* I rate Tunney at 175 as he did the wide majority of his work there. Charles has enough of a HW resume for me to rank him there. Langford could be ranked a HW but since he has HOF wins all the way from junior welter to HW I rank him at 175 as well.

Norton style is taylor made for Foreman. Now Holmes had an arm problem wen he fought Kenny.... U CANNOT compare the 2. It's impossible. It's like saying Young beat Foreman. But do u ever think Young would of beaten Holmes? Of course not.. It's all about styles here. I would of thought u knew that Mr Dempsey. However Foreman does hava better resume. But that don't make him better then Larry. Tho it's fair debate.....

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Johnson
4) Foreman
5) Dempsey
6) Holmes
7) Frazier
8 ) Lewis
9) Liston
10) Marciano

gambler49 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:You know I've noticed it's always Louis or Ali heading most lists.

And I'm in the same boat having them both at the top of my lists as well. But there is something interesting about these lists.

They always contain victims of Ali. Almost always 3. That's 30% of the field, and one sparring partner that beat him when the young understudy eclipsed the "master".

They contain NO victims of Louis. Never, not once have I seen someone Joe beat in anyones top ten list. And usually at least one fella who beat him sometimes 2. Hmm I'm trying to think if I've ever seen Baer or Schmeling in anyones top ten.....maybe but I can't remember it.

Not sure that really means much, but it does seem to be repetitive.

There u go!
Thats y Clay/Ali is #1

That is facetious thinking...

BoxBuzz wrote:You know I've noticed it's always Louis or Ali heading most lists.

And I'm in the same boat having them both at the top of my lists as well. But there is something interesting about these lists.

They always contain victims of Ali. Almost always 3. That's 30% of the field, and one sparring partner that beat him when the young understudy eclipsed the "master".

They contain NO victims of Louis. Never, not once have I seen someone Joe beat in anyones top ten list. And usually at least one fella who beat him sometimes 2. Hmm I'm trying to think if I've ever seen Baer or Schmeling in anyones top ten.....maybe but I can't remember it.

Not sure that really means much, but it does seem to be repetitive.

That's why, on a list centered purely on achievements, I would take Ali as my number-one.

Considering both that & head-to-head, & merging the two criterion, my list spits out at...

Champion: Joe Louis
#1 Contender: Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Joe Frazier
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Mike Tyson
10. Lennox Lewis

Narrowly missing the cut are Rocky Marciano, Jim Jeffries, & Riddick Bowe. I would pick all three to beat some of the men within my top ten, so it was close.

gambler49 wrote:Norton style is taylor made for Foreman. Now Holmes had an arm problem wen he fought Kenny.... U CANNOT compare the 2. It's impossible. It's like saying Young beat Foreman. But do u ever think Young would of beaten Holmes? Of course not.. It's all about styles here. I would of thought u knew that Mr Dempsey. However Foreman does hava better resume. But that don't make him better then Larry. Tho it's fair debate.....

Of course different styles make for different fights . . .so what? Foreman crushes Norton while Larry struggles with him (arm injury or not) and yes Holmes would've probably not had as much trouble with Young. But head to head I see their matchup as essentially even so Foreman's better resume gives him the nod.

dempseyfire wrote:

gambler49 wrote:Norton style is taylor made for Foreman. Now Holmes had an arm problem wen he fought Kenny.... U CANNOT compare the 2. It's impossible. It's like saying Young beat Foreman. But do u ever think Young would of beaten Holmes? Of course not.. It's all about styles here. I would of thought u knew that Mr Dempsey. However Foreman does hava better resume. But that don't make him better then Larry. Tho it's fair debate.....

Of course different styles make for different fights . . .so what? Foreman crushes Norton while Larry struggles with him (arm injury or not) and yes Holmes would've probably not had as much trouble with Young. But head to head I see their matchup as essentially even so Foreman's better resume gives him the nod.

That's just about how I see it, rating Foreman & Holmes. The fight itself is a near pick 'em, so the nod goes to the man with the better CV.

Well if resume was the be all and end all, the likes of Tyson and Johnson wouldnt be inda top 10. U hav2 judge by performance as well. However if u hav foreman ahead of Holmes then thats fair enuff.

gambler49 wrote:Well if resume was the be all and end all, the likes of Tyson and Johnson wouldnt be inda top 10. U hav2 judge by performance as well. However if u hav foreman ahead of Holmes then thats fair enuff.

Who said resume was their be-all & end-all?

BTW, I think Tyson's resume is the least important factor in his making the cut. It was largely garbage between 1995-05. That's a pretty hefty chunk of his career.

He makes my list predominantly on head-to-head strength, with only the first five or six years of his career (where the competition wasn't so great anyway) saving him in the CV department.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

gambler49 wrote:Well if resume was the be all and end all, the likes of Tyson and Johnson wouldnt be inda top 10. U hav2 judge by performance as well. However if u hav foreman ahead of Holmes then thats fair enuff.

Who said resume was their be-all & end-all?

BTW, I think Tyson's resume is the least important factor in his making the cut. It was largely garbage between 1995-05. That's a pretty hefty chunk of his career.

He makes my list predominantly on head-to-head strength, with only the first five or six years of his career (where the competition wasn't so great anyway) saving him in the CV department.

Well if ur gonna judge by h2h, then whos gonna beat Holmes? Clay beats every1, Louis maybe. Tyson would giv him gip for a few rounds b4 he fades., same wiv Foreman. I cant think of any1 else beating Larry h2h. Not even Jeffries.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

gambler49 wrote:Well if resume was the be all and end all, the likes of Tyson and Johnson wouldnt be inda top 10. U hav2 judge by performance as well. However if u hav foreman ahead of Holmes then thats fair enuff.

Who said resume was their be-all & end-all?

BTW, I think Tyson's resume is the least important factor in his making the cut. It was largely garbage between 1995-05. That's a pretty hefty chunk of his career.

He makes my list predominantly on head-to-head strength, with only the first five or six years of his career (where the competition wasn't so great anyway) saving him in the CV department.

I think resume is highly important, but yes of course not the be-all end-all.


Tyson's resume is no puffed-up Klitschko like record. One win over an ATG fighter albeit past his best in Holmes and then his 85-90 string over Berbick, Thomas, Smith, Bruno, Tucker, Tubbs etc. was not over a list of greats but they were good, solid fighters and good victories.


Gambler: I think Holmes could concievably lose to anyone in my top 10. He was a great fighter but not superman.

please don't say tyson beat Holmes... Holmes only came in for that fight at short notice for 3mill.. BTW I r8 Tyson very high. Look at my top 10!
Holmes would beat all ur top 10 h2h bar Louis and Clay!

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Frazier
Liston
Holyfield
Dempsey
Lewis
Tyson

DempseyFire nice list...

Any reason why Jimmy Bivins is in your top 30 and Archie Moore is nowhere to be found? With both fighters weighing at least 180lb, Archie Moore is 4-0 against Jimmy Bivins(including a knockout win over a 27 year old bivins in 1947). Archie also defeated the 3 most dangerous young heavyweights in the division in early 1950s..Nino Valdes 2x, Clarence Henry, and Bob Baker. All 3 were rated in the top 5.

Archies record at heavyweight is 65-3-2 with all 3 losses coming to ATG fighters. Archie's record against men above 200lb is 22-1 with 19 knockouts.


Archie should be on the list

"Well if ur gonna judge by h2h, then whos gonna beat Holmes? Clay beats every1, Louis maybe. Tyson would giv him gip for a few rounds b4 he fades., same wiv Foreman. I cant think of any1 else beating Larry h2h. Not even Jeffries. - Gambler

I already stated my list is a merged criteria of resume & head-to-head.

To answer your question, though? Within my top-10, Louis, Foreman, Ali, Liston, & Frazier --- half the entire list --- are all starting favourites to beat Holmes. Some of those are favoured by minimal margins, but favoured nonetheless.

In point of fact, the only fighter I can't give any realistic shot at beating Holmes among those I listed would be Holyfield. I think you over-estimate Holmes a little, & I say that as someone who ranks him in my top-4.