BoxRec

I know there's a ton of lists that are done on these boards but I'm wondering where you rank ali on an all-time pound for pound list. i feel heavyweights are always penalized on lb for lb lists because part of ranking a fighter is how they do when they move up in weight. list where you rank ali and also list the main things you look for in a fighter when doing your lb for lb rankings. (opponents faced, titles won, skill level, etc...)

Great!

Another Ali thread...

Darling wrote:Great!

Another Ali thread...

Make sure you get the addresses of everyone who contributes, Collie

I place Ali between the top-20 & 50, IMO. That's at a glance --- I haven't done an extensive list like that in some time. Just going by names I could put in front of him. I know a lot (maybe the majority) of members here have both Ali & Louis in their top-10, but I don't, honestly, have room for either.

4 years ago it was marciano threads....now it's ali threads. We've had Tyson tidal waves as well. We have survived all such storms! lol

Top 20 for me. Right behind Louis in the 12-16 range. Nothing is more subjective than all-time lists. i can see him at the end of the top 10. For my money, top 5 is insanity and top 1 is against the law.

I don't rank HWs in P4P.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Top 20 for me. Right behind Louis in the 12-16 range. Nothing is more subjective than all-time lists. i can see him at the end of the top 10. For my money, top 5 is insanity and top 1 is against the law.

Fair call.

Ezzard wrote:I don't rank HWs in P4P.

why?

man wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I don't rank HWs in P4P.

why?

Lots of reasons.

HWs get enough coverage anyway. For me p4p is about non-HWs.

HWs cannot move up the weight classes.

HWs reputations are skewed because they get so much attention.

Also some oddities... (This is an example, slightly frivolous but makes my point) Does Tommy Burns deserve to be rated above Ali (p4p) because Tommy was so much smaller?

I'm not saying you shouldn't, each to their own. I'm just saying that i don't.

I'm an Ali fan, but I would call him somewhere in the top 30-50 or so.

In his prime, he completely dominated his weight class for three years in every single fight he had. Past his prime, he was the best in his weight class in the best era for his weight class.

How many other fighters did both of these ? Maybe a few, but certainly nowhere near 20. How about we get off the Ali-bashing and think reasonably?

Ambling Alp wrote: How about we get off the Ali-bashing and think reasonably?

It's a good idea. But I doubt it will catch on in here.

Ambling Alp wrote:In his prime, he completely dominated his weight class for three years in every single fight he had. Past his prime, he was the best in his weight class in the best era for his weight class.

How many other fighters did both of these ? Maybe a few, but certainly nowhere near 20. How about we get off the Ali-bashing and think reasonably?

Completely dominated...

London
Mildenberger
Patterson
Cooper
Folley
Williams
Terrell
Chuvalo

Ali certainly ticked all the boxes against this opposition, but the list isn't especially foreboding, & that's the truth no matter who says it.

Prime versions of Dempsey, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Lewis, Louis, & a few others would have fared absolutely no worse.

Ambling Alp wrote:In his prime, he completely dominated his weight class for three years in every single fight he had. Past his prime, he was the best in his weight class in the best era for his weight class.

How many other fighters did both of these ? Maybe a few, but certainly nowhere near 20. How about we get off the Ali-bashing and think reasonably?

I just quickly read over this thread again, & you know what I saw, Alp? Not a single attack on Ali. You could read this thread & come away with the judgement no one has even criticised him yet, in truth.

Ali is too sensitive a subject here. There is literally nothing in this thread which comes even near to bashing.

im actually gobsmacked by some of the replys to this thread....some have even said outside top 30.....i mean..........wow.......
the guy makes liston bitch out on his stall, knocks out big george and beats smokin joe frazier twice! if you ask any boxing fans what the biggest 2 fights in boxing history are a vast majority would say the thrilla in manilla and rumble in the jungle....he has the fastest hands and feet of any other hw past or present! and you guys dont even think he deserves top 10? this is a sad day for boxing.........

Jesus wrote:im actually gobsmacked by some of the replys to this thread....some have even said outside top 30.....i mean..........wow.......
the guy makes liston bitch out on his stall, knocks out big george and beats smokin joe frazier twice! if you ask any boxing fans what the biggest 2 fights in boxing history are a vast majority would say the thrilla in manilla and rumble in the jungle....he has the fastest hands and feet of any other hw past or present! and you guys dont even think he deserves top 10? this is a sad day for boxing.........

You under-estimate the true depth of the sport's legends. Ali has a deserved place among them, but if you think he's a shoo-in for the top-10 in this most exclusive of all historical rankings, IMO you're mistaken.

This is where I see the great Muhammad Ali...Around the 6th and 7th spot.

In my personal list I have:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Muhammad Ali

Of the last 50 years, since 1960, I rank Ali second, behind the great Roberto Duran.

Jesus wrote:im actually gobsmacked by some of the replys to this thread....some have even said outside top 30.....i mean..........wow.......
the guy makes liston bitch out on his stall, knocks out big george and beats smokin joe frazier twice! if you ask any boxing fans what the biggest 2 fights in boxing history are a vast majority would say the thrilla in manilla and rumble in the jungle....he has the fastest hands and feet of any other hw past or present! and you guys dont even think he deserves top 10? this is a sad day for boxing.........

LOL, lists are subjective. Calling someone the 30th greatest fighter isn't an attack on his talent. I have him higher than that, but I also have 20 guys behind him that you can easily make a case for.

SRR
Charles
Langford
Armstrong
Greb
Pep
Duran
Moore
B Leonard
Gavilan

That's my top 10 at the moment. No slight at Ali, I think these fighters were better. I wouldn't have any issue with Ali at the back end of the top 10. But putting him over Robinson as 4 have done is far more egregious than saying he is top 30.

im sorry but i think this is going to have to be one of them agree to disagree situations.....altough im glad some people are being slightly more realistic and putting him in top 10........personally i think he is a shoe-in for the top 5 (even possibly number 1, i would defo have him number 1 hw of all time). first time 3 time world champ says it all.....won his first world title a few days after his 22 birthday...the guy caused two of the biggest upsets in boxing history for god sake...i just think anybody who ranks him outside top 30 is taking the piss....anyway like i said agree to disagree...

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:In his prime, he completely dominated his weight class for three years in every single fight he had. Past his prime, he was the best in his weight class in the best era for his weight class.

How many other fighters did both of these ? Maybe a few, but certainly nowhere near 20. How about we get off the Ali-bashing and think reasonably?

Completely dominated...

London
Mildenberger
Patterson
Cooper
Folley
Williams
Terrell
Chuvalo

Ali certainly ticked all the boxes against this opposition, but the list isn't especially foreboding, & that's the truth no matter who says it.

Prime versions of Dempsey, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Lewis, Louis, & a few others would have fared absolutely no worse.

first of all you did not put Liston in.
Ali was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two other fights were lopsided decision victories.

I disagree that they all would have fared no worse. First, they may have lost to Liston. Second, they would have moments when they struggled and may have even lost against the other guys.

Everyone else struggled lost in or near their prime and most have close calls.

Dempsey had hard time with Gibbons and almost got knocked out by Firpo.
Foreman-His title reign did not last long.
Tyson had a lot of trouble with Tucker and was knocked by douglas.
Louis was knocked out by Schmeling, decked by Braddock, had a lot of trouble with Tommy Farr.
Frazier got knocked by Foreman.
Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman and struggled in some other fights.

You also ignored the rest of my point - Were they able to be the best when they were past their best like Ali?
Demspey was not the same after taking 3 years off. Louis was nowhere near as good after World War II.

Lewis was the best at an older age but his competition was not as good.

As far as the bashing- Saying he is not in the Top 20 All-Time is bashing. 4 people don't even have him in their top 100. You don't have to be too bright to realize that it is becasue some people don't like him so they won't rate him remotley as high they should. Other people like him and rate him highly.

There are some people who can actually not consider their dislike of a fighter when rating them. Too bad their are not more of them.

"...Saying he is not top-20 of all-time is bashing..."

That right there prohibits further discussion, for me.

Jesus wrote:im sorry but i think this is going to have to be one of them agree to disagree situations.....altough im glad some people are being slightly more realistic and putting him in top 10........personally i think he is a shoe-in for the top 5 (even possibly number 1, i would defo have him number 1 hw of all time). first time 3 time world champ says it all.....won his first world title a few days after his 22 birthday...the guy caused two of the biggest upsets in boxing history for god sake...i just think anybody who ranks him outside top 30 is taking the piss....anyway like i said agree to disagree...

It's not a big deal, like I said he is in my top15. But top 5 is a tough sell for me. Robinson, Charles, Greb, Armstrong & Langford just for an example. I don't see any possible scenario where he rates over any of those guys.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"...Saying he is not top-20 of all-time is bashing..."

That right there prohibits further discussion, for me.

Fine with me.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"...Saying he is not top-20 of all-time is bashing..."

That right there prohibits further discussion, for me.

It's akin to saying Frazier was the better man head to head in their respective primes. Something like that is sacrilegious and can not stand.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Jesus wrote:im sorry but i think this is going to have to be one of them agree to disagree situations.....altough im glad some people are being slightly more realistic and putting him in top 10........personally i think he is a shoe-in for the top 5 (even possibly number 1, i would defo have him number 1 hw of all time). first time 3 time world champ says it all.....won his first world title a few days after his 22 birthday...the guy caused two of the biggest upsets in boxing history for god sake...i just think anybody who ranks him outside top 30 is taking the piss....anyway like i said agree to disagree...

It's not a big deal, like I said he is in my top15. But top 5 is a tough sell for me. Robinson, Charles, Greb, Armstrong & Langford just for an example. I don't see any possible scenario where he rates over any of those guys.

no scenario? not even the fact he was the youngest ever heavyweight world champion at that time? the first guy to become a 3 time world champ, the fact he beat everyone worth fighting in the "golden era" of heavyweight boxing, the guy who was still a cut above the rest despite being way past his prime, i will even throw in that fact he was involved in the biggest fights in boxing history, oh and lets not forget the olympic gold medal of course....it seems ali's outspoken ways and political views upset people even to this day....i mean what else could it be to make someone rank ali outside top 10p4p of all time? and if you walked down the street and say those names you mentioned to people 95% wouldnt know who they are....how many would know ali???