BoxRec

Open scoring thread for any or all of these fights.

I shall upload mine asap. Just have to get home and
dig up the book I scored them in.

Norton vs Ali II 1973

Round 1 - 10-9 Ali
Round 2- 10-9 Ali
Round 3- 10-9 Ali
Round 4- 10-9 Ali
Round 5- 10-9 Ali
Round 6- 10-9 Norton
Round 7- 10-9 Norton ( I was tempted to make this a 10-8 round)
Round 8- 10-9 Norton
Round 9- 10-9 Norton
Round 10- 10-9 Norton
Round 11- 10-9 Norton
Round 12- 10-9 Ali

114-114 Even A draw. I scored this fight some time back. I can re
watch and re score.

Ali vs Norton III

Round 1- 10-9 Ali
Round 2- 10-9 Norton
Round 3- 10-9 Norton
Round 4- 10-9 Norton
Round 5- 10-9 Norton
Round 6- 10-9 Norton
Round 7- 10-9 Ali
Round 8- 10-9 Norton
Round 9- 10-9 Ali
Round 10- 10-9 Ali
Round 11- 10-9 Norton
Round 12- 10-9 Norton
Round 13- 10-9 Norton
Round 14- 10-9 Norton
Round 15- 10-9 Ali

145-140 Norton

I also scored this some time ago and could re score it again
some time soon.

I had the last bout 9-6, 144-141 for Norton, but the case was available for me to come up with the same card you did --- 10-5.

The second fight, I thought Ali won by a point. 6-5-1.

Third fight: 11-4 Norton. The best I could do, giving Ali every reasonably close round and valuing two flicking slaps over a solid dig, was 9-6 Norton.
Second fight: Draw

First Fight

10-2 Norton

Second Fight

11-1 Norton

Third Fight

15-0 Norton

Also, Ali never won a round against Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks.

Don't forget Jimmy Young. And gran your scoring for the Norton Ali fights have changed over the years. Oh wait your not gran...you are his biggest fan.....


And how did the celeb panel from Ali Norton III get it so wrong? They reviewed the films a week later on a major network sportscast. Total they had it as a draw, Joe F. had it by one round for Kenny. Some others had it the other way round. No one scored it lopsided. Any other Newspaper or sports journalists published scores available?

Officials SC. 8-6-1, 8-7, 8-7. UD. Any thoughts on these judges? How did the ref score it? Or was he the 8-6 score card? I'm thinkin this may have been when refs had a hand in it.

BoxBuzz wrote:Don't forget Jimmy Young. And gran your scoring for the Norton Ali fights have changed over the years. Oh wait your not gran...you are his biggest fan.....


And how did the celeb panel from Ali Norton III get it so wrong? They reviewed the films a week later on a major network sportscast. Total they had it as a draw, Joe F. had it by one round for Kenny. Some others had it the other way round. No one scored it lopsided. Any other Newspaper or sports journalists published scores available?

Officials SC. 8-6-1, 8-7, 8-7. UD. Any thoughts on these judges? How did the ref score it? Or was he the 8-6 score card? I'm thinkin this may have been when refs had a hand in it.

The judges sucked and either they were idiots and gave Ali points for making faces or Arum gave them 'encouragement' to score for the big meal-ticket in Ali.

A 'celebrity panel'? . . .I won't even comment.

No-one scored it lopsided? The TV commentators did . . (although I don't remember who it was) I'm pretty sure several newspaper accounts had Norton with a commanding lead. And Ali himself admitted he lost the fight.

Either way, and I'll say this till the cows come home, I don't see it EVEN IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY that Ali won that fight. Worse than Lewis-Holyfield (by far), Toney-Tiberi, Louis-Walcott etc.

Don't have a scorecard...

First fight was a clear Norton win.

Second fight was close I've scored it a draw and I've scored it for Ali by 1.

Third fight... Norton won BUT there are rounds in which Norton does nothing but follow him around the ring. Ali flicks out a few jabs and nothing happens. Norton was obviously winning the fight.

I had Norton winning the 1st fight 7-5.

I don't remember how I scored them, but I had Norton winning all three. The second fight was the closest, and I have no issues with anyone who thought Ali won that particular contest.

Hey Dempsey, I'm not really promoting a disagreement, but would love to experience some documentation written or video regarding your commments of the lopsided aspect. Mostly curious.

The "Celeb" panel were sports figures...including Joe Frazier. So it wasn't like they used Pee Wee Herman and Herman Munster....and no one had it lopsided at that time.

Judges and ref being goofy...is certainly not unheard of.

My question was, was this as bad as the Leonard Hearns call in your opinion?

Just wondering how many had it 10 to5 or even more lopsided than that?

Just to put the boot on the other foot: Imagine if Norton had been given the decisions in all threee Ali fights - then I suppose the argument would have been made that Ali should have got the nod.
In reality, all 3 contests were very close but Ali won two of them IMO.

Go to 4:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOYLRsM4 ... re=related

Red Smith: Norton 10-5
Stan Hochman: 8-6-1 Norton
? McGee: 6-5-4 (haha, 4 even rounds? give me a break . .) Norton
Commentator: 9-6 Norton

Being as generous as one can possibly be to Ali, Hochman's card would be as good as you could get. I think 10-5 and 9-6 are much more accurate scores however.

The referee was up close and could tell what was going on. I like the ref being able to factor his input as long as he's an honest guy......I'm not sure I'd be so quick to totaly discount his judgment in this third fight. Norton said hitting Ali was like hitting a chunk of iron. Maybe the ref saw a little of what Kenny was describing. He was even closer than....well some of us who opine here, including myself. Ali certainly looked fresher in the final round than Kenny, though he didn't seem overly effective with that described freshness at least to my way of thinking.



In addition to my own observations there areTwo sources of good info that I can count on.

Ref's take....G.I's call......
Ref's take....G.I's call.....
Ref's take....G.I's call....

Tough one.

I do believe this fight to be somewhat ambiguous, but like I say it's hard to write off the referee's call on this.
I'll poke some fun at myself on this and ask that age old question. Am I going to believe the ref and judges or my lying eyes? When I see any score beyond a draw or a one round in either direction, I do get a bit suspicious. So the referee's call is somewhat grounding for me.

Has the ref ever been interviewed in these many years since this fight? Or have any of the judges been interviewed on the subject? Ok don't be a smart ass and tell me about the one or ones who are now dead, cuz for the moment I forget the individuals involved.

It's comforting to know that I can always fall back on G.I.'s call and consider the matter "settled".

Buzz, when did refs become the great objective arbiters in boxing? Refs have been giving HORRENDOUS decisions in boxing matches for decades, from Hart-Johnston to Sharkey-Schmeling II to Williams-Sprott III.

BoxBuzz wrote:It's comforting to know that I can always fall back on G.I.'s call and consider the matter "settled".

Yes, since we lost the great Decagon, Irene has filled the role of resident expert perfectly.

dempseyfire wrote:Buzz, when did refs become the great objective arbiters in boxing? Refs have been giving HORRENDOUS decisions in boxing matches for decades, from Hart-Johnston to Sharkey-Schmeling II to Williams-Sprott III.

hey dfire.....I always respect your input, cuz I know you ain't tappin the keys just to admire your font.

And your right about refs being part of some bad stuff, but I've always figured that was because they had a dog in the fight. How can an honest man be that close to the action and not get a sense of who's in charge? Have you ever been that close to a fight in your life and not been able to figure out who's got the edge from moment to moment? So if they are honest I would think they would have a credible report to offer.

Seems you'd be able to pick up on some subtle stuff that no one else could possibly have a feel for.

I've heard the argument that your "too busy refereeing to be able to judge". But that sounds to me like "you've got too much money to by that Cadillac". I just can't make sense of it. Now if it's about corruption, I hear ya. But if it's about not being able to figure out who's on top within a three minute exchange going on right in front of your eyes, and being so close that you are able to reach out and touch the participants...(and sometimes being required to) I just don't get the argument.

BoxBuzz wrote:The referee was up close and could tell what was going on. I like the ref being able to factor his input as long as he's an honest guy......I'm not sure I'd be so quick to totaly discount his judgment in this third fight. Norton said hitting Ali was like hitting a chunk of iron. Maybe the ref saw a little of what Kenny was describing. He was even closer than....well some of us who opine here, including myself. Ali certainly looked fresher in the final round than Kenny, though he didn't seem overly effective with that described freshness at least to my way of thinking.



In addition to my own observations there areTwo sources of good info that I can count on.

Ref's take....G.I's call......
Ref's take....G.I's call.....
Ref's take....G.I's call....

Tough one.

I do believe this fight to be somewhat ambiguous, but like I say it's hard to write off the referee's call on this.
I'll poke some fun at myself on this and ask that age old question. Am I going to believe the ref and judges or my lying eyes? When I see any score beyond a draw or a one round in either direction, I do get a bit suspicious. So the referee's call is somewhat grounding for me.

Has the ref ever been interviewed in these many years since this fight? Or have any of the judges been interviewed on the subject? Ok don't be a smart ass and tell me about the one or ones who are now dead, cuz for the moment I forget the individuals involved.

It's comforting to know that I can always fall back on G.I.'s call and consider the matter "settled".

I know you have a great affinity for comedy, Buzz. I've been watching it unfold for three years, now...& I swear, one of these days, you will actually say something funny. I know you can do it

Hey G.I. I just operate as your straight man. We're a team! I'm just here for support.

What was it that Norton shouted to Ali immediately after their third fight?

"Five rounds, that's all you got!" (or something like that)

Anyway, 10-5 in favor of Norton was about right, maybe a little closer.

Ali did not legitimately win that trilogy.

?

muhammed ali20.08.07 - By James Slater: “Norton must fall, Norton must fall!” That was Muhammad Ali’s mantra going into his rubber match with San Diego’s Kenny Norton - in a boxing fight that took place thirty-one years ago next month.

Pumping up both himself and the huge crowd inside Yankee stadium, Ali passionately repeated the three words over and over. He meant it, too. Desperately he wanted to get rid of the man who had previously beaten him, broken his jaw and held him to the closest of close decisions in fight number two. Ali and Norton had a history, that’s for sure.

Their first meeting inside a boxing ring was in March of 1973, with Norton pulling off a huge upset as he won on points over twelve rounds against the come backing Ali - becoming only the second man ever to beat him. The two men met again, later that same year. With his broken jaw healed, and this time having dedicated himself to far more strenuous training, Ali got his revenge. Still, the return bout had been another hard and close fight. But Ali won it, just.

Now, on September 28th, 1976, with the world title that he had regained in such great style against the seemingly unbeatable George Foreman two years earlier on the line, Ali and Norton met for the third and final time. What followed was yet another excruciatingly close bout, one that would, incredibly, as with fights one and two, be decided by the very last round. Kenny Norton certainly proved that the win he achieved back in 1973 was no fluke, he pushed Ali harder than any other fighter except “Smokin’” Joe Frazier. To this day, the debate rages as to who really won the fight that day in New York, thirty years ago.

Ali tried all his intimidation tactics. The aforementioned war cry didn’t faze Ken, so Ali began winding up his arm in an exaggerated fashion- giving off the impression of a fighter who simply couldn’t wait to get it on. This not only failed to intimidate Norton, it was actually kind of funny. There was the great Ali, with his right arm whistling round like a windmill! Then the first bell rang. Ali rushed over to ring centre, only to stop dead in his tracks as Norton met him for combat. Ali knew what kind of a night he had in front of him, despite his wishes to the contrary. He knew a quick win was extremely unlikely. Fighting in a way that enabled him to use every last ounce of his cunning, the fading Ali managed to get through the long rounds. He tried all of his tricks. Ali rope-a doped, he danced as often as his thirty-four year old body would allow, he spoke to Norton frequently and he went toe-to-toe with his foe when there was no other alternative.

Norton, magnificently well muscled as usual, was in great shape. He was sure he would win, time, he felt, was on his side. Though only a couple of years younger than the champ, Kenny had far less wear and tear on his body than did The Greatest. This was evident on a number of occasions, as the challenger both hurt and out-fought Ali. A particularly hard looking body shot almost doubled Ali over at one point. Still, the two-time heavyweight king showed his usual defiance and courage. At times the huge crowd were on their feet as both men went punch for punch.

But with the erosion he had been subjected to, the result of over fifty pro bouts, nineteen of them world title fights, Ali couldn’t sustain such action for long. Also, when attempting to revive the success he had enjoyed over Foreman when rope-a-doping, Norton foiled his plans by refusing to punch himself out like Big George. Punching around Ali’s guard, as apposed to shooting blows up the middle, as Foreman had done, Ken enjoyed some success. At one point, when Ali tried to respond to a crowd that was cheering his name, by opening his mouth and mocking Norton in a manner that seemed to say, “look who the fans want to win, sucker!”, he was met by a hard punch from the no-nonsense
challenger. Was the old Ali magic at last starting to diminish?

Well, yes and no. Sure, his fighting prowess was no way near what it had once been, Ali was human after all. But his influence over the scoring judges was more mesmerising than ever. At the end of fifteen grueling rounds, grueling for Ali mostly, a disbelieving Norton broke down in tears as he heard the unanimous decision victory for Ali reverberate around Yankee Stadium. He simply could not believe it. Neither could a good many other people. Britain’s esteemed commentator, Harry Carpenter, for example, told his audience that the decision simply could not be right. And though Norton’s corner have to take some of the blame for the loss, due to the fact that they gave their man instructions to box cautiously instead of fighting hard in the final round - this against a man who had never once come close to even flooring Norton in all their previous rounds of boxing, the fact that victory was denied Ken was unfair.

Afterwards, when asked if he thought the win he’d been given was just, Ali, looking quite annoyed at such an affront of a question, replied how he certainly was. “The judges are in there, they see.” Ali told his impertinent interviewer, “the judges know more than you do.” For his part, Norton still believes he won the fight to this very day. He admits the loss in fight number two was fair, but cries robbery when it comes to the rubber-match. He also says that after losing in 1976, he never trusted boxing judges again. Who could blame him?

The fight was close, without a doubt. But, to my way of thinking, the extraordinary and fabulous figure that so transcended the sporting world that was Muhammad Ali, was given a gift decision. With his massive shadow both overwhelming and bringing genuinely once in a lifetime moments to boxing, the fistic world didn’t want to lose him. He was needed as the heavyweight champion. Ken Norton, on the other hand, wasn’t.



Interesting article.....doesn't seem to be describing the greatest robbery of all time by any means.

BoxBuzz wrote:?

muhammed ali20.08.07 - By James Slater: “Norton must fall, Norton must fall!” That was Muhammad Ali’s mantra going into his rubber match with San Diego’s Kenny Norton - in a boxing fight that took place thirty-one years ago next month.

Pumping up both himself and the huge crowd inside Yankee stadium, Ali passionately repeated the three words over and over. He meant it, too. Desperately he wanted to get rid of the man who had previously beaten him, broken his jaw and held him to the closest of close decisions in fight number two. Ali and Norton had a history, that’s for sure.

Their first meeting inside a boxing ring was in March of 1973, with Norton pulling off a huge upset as he won on points over twelve rounds against the come backing Ali - becoming only the second man ever to beat him. The two men met again, later that same year. With his broken jaw healed, and this time having dedicated himself to far more strenuous training, Ali got his revenge. Still, the return bout had been another hard and close fight. But Ali won it, just.

Now, on September 28th, 1976, with the world title that he had regained in such great style against the seemingly unbeatable George Foreman two years earlier on the line, Ali and Norton met for the third and final time. What followed was yet another excruciatingly close bout, one that would, incredibly, as with fights one and two, be decided by the very last round. Kenny Norton certainly proved that the win he achieved back in 1973 was no fluke, he pushed Ali harder than any other fighter except “Smokin’” Joe Frazier. To this day, the debate rages as to who really won the fight that day in New York, thirty years ago.

Ali tried all his intimidation tactics. The aforementioned war cry didn’t faze Ken, so Ali began winding up his arm in an exaggerated fashion- giving off the impression of a fighter who simply couldn’t wait to get it on. This not only failed to intimidate Norton, it was actually kind of funny. There was the great Ali, with his right arm whistling round like a windmill! Then the first bell rang. Ali rushed over to ring centre, only to stop dead in his tracks as Norton met him for combat. Ali knew what kind of a night he had in front of him, despite his wishes to the contrary. He knew a quick win was extremely unlikely. Fighting in a way that enabled him to use every last ounce of his cunning, the fading Ali managed to get through the long rounds. He tried all of his tricks. Ali rope-a doped, he danced as often as his thirty-four year old body would allow, he spoke to Norton frequently and he went toe-to-toe with his foe when there was no other alternative.

Norton, magnificently well muscled as usual, was in great shape. He was sure he would win, time, he felt, was on his side. Though only a couple of years younger than the champ, Kenny had far less wear and tear on his body than did The Greatest. This was evident on a number of occasions, as the challenger both hurt and out-fought Ali. A particularly hard looking body shot almost doubled Ali over at one point. Still, the two-time heavyweight king showed his usual defiance and courage. At times the huge crowd were on their feet as both men went punch for punch.

But with the erosion he had been subjected to, the result of over fifty pro bouts, nineteen of them world title fights, Ali couldn’t sustain such action for long. Also, when attempting to revive the success he had enjoyed over Foreman when rope-a-doping, Norton foiled his plans by refusing to punch himself out like Big George. Punching around Ali’s guard, as apposed to shooting blows up the middle, as Foreman had done, Ken enjoyed some success. At one point, when Ali tried to respond to a crowd that was cheering his name, by opening his mouth and mocking Norton in a manner that seemed to say, “look who the fans want to win, sucker!”, he was met by a hard punch from the no-nonsense
challenger. Was the old Ali magic at last starting to diminish?

Well, yes and no. Sure, his fighting prowess was no way near what it had once been, Ali was human after all. But his influence over the scoring judges was more mesmerising than ever. At the end of fifteen grueling rounds, grueling for Ali mostly, a disbelieving Norton broke down in tears as he heard the unanimous decision victory for Ali reverberate around Yankee Stadium. He simply could not believe it. Neither could a good many other people. Britain’s esteemed commentator, Harry Carpenter, for example, told his audience that the decision simply could not be right. And though Norton’s corner have to take some of the blame for the loss, due to the fact that they gave their man instructions to box cautiously instead of fighting hard in the final round - this against a man who had never once come close to even flooring Norton in all their previous rounds of boxing, the fact that victory was denied Ken was unfair.

Afterwards, when asked if he thought the win he’d been given was just, Ali, looking quite annoyed at such an affront of a question, replied how he certainly was. “The judges are in there, they see.” Ali told his impertinent interviewer, “the judges know more than you do.” For his part, Norton still believes he won the fight to this very day. He admits the loss in fight number two was fair, but cries robbery when it comes to the rubber-match. He also says that after losing in 1976, he never trusted boxing judges again. Who could blame him?

The fight was close, without a doubt. But, to my way of thinking, the extraordinary and fabulous figure that so transcended the sporting world that was Muhammad Ali, was given a gift decision. With his massive shadow both overwhelming and bringing genuinely once in a lifetime moments to boxing, the fistic world didn’t want to lose him. He was needed as the heavyweight champion. Ken Norton, on the other hand, wasn’t.



Interesting article.....doesn't seem to be describing the greatest robbery of all time by any means.

"He was needed as the heavyweight champion. Ken Norton, on the other hand, wasn't."

Sums it up well. $$$

Maybe not the greatest robbery of all time, but robbery none the less.

yancey wrote: "He was needed as the heavyweight champion. Ken Norton, on the other hand, wasn't."

Sums it up well. $$$

That was one of old gran's mantras too.

BoxBuzz wrote:Interesting article.....doesn't seem to be describing the greatest robbery of all time by any means.

The article makes it sound like a draw, but fortunately you can watch the fight yourself, even on youtube. While I would be reluctant to call this the greatest robbery of all time as you suggested, I find it equally difficult to score it as a draw (let alone for Ali). I would score the trilogy 2-1 for Norton, with the 2nd fight for Ali.