BoxRec

Got to be some of these old timers who no footage exists of?

Everyone can go on youtube and see just how good boxers are but you see the same old names perpetuated on message boards, magazines and so-on.

orbtastic wrote:Got to be some of these old timers who no footage exists of?

Everyone can go on youtube and see just how good boxers are but you see the same old names perpetuated on message boards, magazines and so-on.

I sort of agree with that.

Lot's of fighters get rated off of hear say.

Just because so and so said he was the greatest fighter he ever seen does not make it true. You can rank greatness off of accomplishments but it's hard to say how skilled someone was without actually having seen them fight.

Also the reason most oldtimes are under-rated

Very true, it is a doubled edged sword. Injury stops me typing a much longer detailed reply but i will once my shoulder is fixed

Can't leave the rOck out. That "0" continues to expand.

Ali --- though he has a totally bonafide, unchallenged claim to greatness. I could see how someone would say Tyson failed to become a great.

Ali. Tyson gets involved in a lot of hyperbole but in general people aren't unrealistic about how good he was thanks to the Douglass, Holyfield, and Lewis fights being so widely watched and generally exposing him as mortal. Ali however gets talked about constantly for his out-of-ring exploits as much as his fights. People always mention him in Civil Rights movement stuff, his comments on Vietnam, and his banter with opponents and Howard Cosell. You rarely hear anything negative about him from anyone because most people don't know the dark side of him, which was largely hidden or overshadowed from the general public.

I mean come on, Ali fought Superman in a comic book, and one that was made when he was shot at that.

Ali probably gets more overrated but he fought and beat better fighters than Tyson. Tyson fell apart as soon as someone had the balls to stand up to him, he destroyed his own legacy.

Moving on to a lot of older fighters the problem is a lot of their hype is on hearsay, very little good footage is held. Today every fight can be viewed in the most minute detail and broadcast across the world and forums like this can dissect every part of it. The old fighters were never under the same scrutiny and therefore were often made out to be better than they really were.

Controversial wrote:Ali probably gets more overrated but he fought and beat better fighters than Tyson. Tyson fell apart as soon as someone had the balls to stand up to him, he destroyed his own legacy.

Moving on to a lot of older fighters the problem is a lot of their hype is on hearsay, very little good footage is held. Today every fight can be viewed in the most minute detail and broadcast across the world and forums like this can dissect every part of it. The old fighters were never under the same scrutiny and therefore were often made out to be better than they really were.

That door swings both ways with the older fighters. A lot of people won't rank Harry Greb, or rank him surprisingly low. Look at the man's resume. If the footage were extensively available, I guarantee you he would be so over-whelmingly impressive, he would rank at number-one for a lot more people than he does today.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Controversial wrote:Ali probably gets more overrated but he fought and beat better fighters than Tyson. Tyson fell apart as soon as someone had the balls to stand up to him, he destroyed his own legacy.

Moving on to a lot of older fighters the problem is a lot of their hype is on hearsay, very little good footage is held. Today every fight can be viewed in the most minute detail and broadcast across the world and forums like this can dissect every part of it. The old fighters were never under the same scrutiny and therefore were often made out to be better than they really were.

That door swings both ways with the older fighters. A lot of people won't rank Harry Greb, or rank him surprisingly low. Look at the man's resume. If the footage were extensively available, I guarantee you he would be so over-whelmingly impressive, he would rank at number-one for a lot more people than he does today.

Normally, I rank Greb at number 3 (behind Robinson and Armstrong) but I will not argue with anyone ranking him at number 1. His record is one of the most impressive resumes for any fighter in the history of boxing.

BarryWashington wrote:

orbtastic wrote:Got to be some of these old timers who no footage exists of?

Everyone can go on youtube and see just how good boxers are but you see the same old names perpetuated on message boards, magazines and so-on.

*Blank Stare*

Anyway . . . moving along.

I have to agree with this one. I find it amazing how people are experts on classical and vintage age fighters
without ever having seen them fight. I know they go by what is written about them, but I have read lots
about some fighters and then watched them on film with my own eyes in several fights and It amazes
me how different a picture the written word created compared to the one I was actually seeing.

Its a tragiv misfortune of a lack of technology most certainly that these old timers did not have anything
recored, but that does not stop fans and the avid chroniclers of them from painting and depicting such
immortal images and myths. Sure modern fighters have those that do the same, but atleast with them
one can watch those guys in action, and watch their opponents to make up ones own mind. But as time
passes by and the gulf between then and now widens, what is fact and what is myth becomes less and less
separable.

Regarding Ali and Tyson, I think they still hold tremenedous appeal to
non boxing fans. If you ask most non boxing fans who is the best boxer
ever, they will either say one of these two guys.

That is in part due to their popularity when they were on top, their
dynamic abilities and how well received for better or worse that they
were in the media then and now.

That is perhaps why they are 'over rated'.

Robinson wrote:

BarryWashington wrote:

orbtastic wrote:Got to be some of these old timers who no footage exists of?

Everyone can go on youtube and see just how good boxers are but you see the same old names perpetuated on message boards, magazines and so-on.

*Blank Stare*

Anyway . . . moving along.

I have to agree with this one. I find it amazing how people are experts on classical and vintage age fighters
without ever having seen them fight. I know they go by what is written about them, but I have read lots
about some fighters and then watched them on film with my own eyes in several fights and It amazes
me how different a picture the written word created compared to the one I was actually seeing.

Its a tragiv misfortune of a lack of technology most certainly that these old timers did not have anything
recored, but that does not stop fans and the avid chroniclers of them from painting and depicting such
immortal images and myths. Sure modern fighters have those that do the same, but atleast with them
one can watch those guys in action, and watch their opponents to make up ones own mind. But as time
passes by and the gulf between then and now widens, what is fact and what is myth becomes less and less
separable.

You mean Jack Johnson wouldn't score a first round KO of prime Mike Tyson like we're supposed to believe? SACRILEGE!!!

No, it would be in the second round thank you very much.

Il go back to drinking my gin and smoking my cigar as I write
another article on just that very thing.

the everyday peon on youtube always tell us Tyson was the greatest HW ever and would have knocked out Ali in 1 round. So i would say Tyson. Especially in Britain for some reason he is very overrated. It may be cos all his prime fights were broadcast live and also in, weirdly, the kiddies tv breakfast slot on a sunday morning at 10am.Tyson is very very well known in the UK . He was a household name even by the time just before he beat Berbick. I remember on the primary school playground all of us talking about his victory over berbick.

Would that happen today? hell no. Back than most of england 90% only had 4 tv channels. No internet either. We watched what came on.
Thats how Tysons name was made plus he was so exciting , there was a cartoonish quality to his knockouts

I'll go along with crowd here, because people seem to get that Ali was a great fighter, and Tyson was a well managed ferocious personality with a some truly great boxing skills as well. Ali was in charge of the media, Tyson was a victim of same.....as well as his own behavior.


Now as far as the "blind" accusations go....I still think the the rOck ought to be included in this since only he can make this a sensible trilogy of debate.

And if you should question me again on the matter of eyesight you too will feel the sting of the glass eye hurled at 100MPG right at the top of your skull.

My response to Irene regarding the Kenny Norton III fight seemed to fit better in this thread....

Goodnight, Irene wrote:If I can find this footage, you will see it is not a possibility. Ali's face conveys a despondent figure. Its hard to be sure, but it looks like he may not even be looking directly at the reporter.

He looks just as the interviewer describes him (like a man who lost, rather than won). He just looks plain tired --- of everything. Clearly, a fighter who should've already been in retirement anyway.

This entire statement of yours resonates IMHO. He seemed a guy who loved life, loved "the stage" if not boxing itself, and perhaps was beginning to realize that even if won this one, he did not do it in any convincing (what he might think of as) "Ali fashion", against someone he truly wanted to punish. AT that moment e may well have sensed things coming to an end, if not in this fight, at some point soon. What a way to make a living eh? With everyone hanging on to the drama of your life? Pretty surreal in my estimation.

However once he won, it seems he was ready to pick up and take the drama to whatever the next chapter would be. "The stage is a ruthless mistress". And he was at this time perhaps the world's most watched, and perhaps revered personality. He may have even felt he owed everyone another drama or two. Who knows. But I have to say that at this point, the sport of Boxing was only small part of this drama. The stage in which something very different than sporting events were playing out. There was nothing to compare this with in boxing. Before He fought Holmes his persona was about as iconic as the Subject of "Men on the Moon", The Kennedy Assasination and Nixon's Resignation, and he was perhaps better known than Elvis, The Beatles. Me? I generally liked him, but was never under the spell as I was an Archie Moore fan, and was at least a tiny bit bitter that he essentially ended Archie's Career. Though Archie was grateful for the paycheck.

By the way I don't think I'm exaggerating his situation. ON more than one occasion he was named as the planet's most recognizable name and likeness.


Even if he was the G.O.A.T. (and I"m not saying he was) he would still have to be the most overrated, I'm not sure it would be possible for him not to be.

Ali isn't overrated and while Tyson is by a lot of people, I've noticed more people coming to grips with his mortality as opposed to being swept up in the hype.

Ricardo Lopez & julio cesar Chavez are more overrated with every day. Not from a talent standpoint, but their resumes get tossed aside more with every passing second. They are immune to having to beat other great fighters for all time great standing.

Robinson wrote:I have to agree with this one. I find it amazing how people are experts on classical and vintage age fighters
without ever having seen them fight. I know they go by what is written about them, but I have read lots
about some fighters and then watched them on film with my own eyes in several fights and It amazes
me how different a picture the written word created compared to the one I was actually seeing.

I understand what you are saying, and it is logical, but it's also logical to say that a large number now dismiss the old time fighters. How many times have you read posts commenting about pre 1900 fighters saying that they wouldn't stand a chance against a "modern" fighter because of their style, and yet they haven't ever seen them fight?

And I would say Ali gains more aura each year, but as Irene noted, he certainly deservers it. Tyson is probably losing traction now, because he stuck around too long.

Of course, I'd like to see more love for Louis. We do have footage of him, and she as hell looks pretty good to me.

Top 10 HWs of all time

1. Ali
(tie) Louis
Everybody else...

I understand Ali's profile , after it slumped in the 1980's due to his illness, has soared and soared since the mid 1990s after Atlanta 96 and his iconisation in the internet age..........but I simply cant accept he could ever be overrated as a fighter.........there doesnt seem to be a single facet in which he could improve overall to make himself a more complete fighter.

If people say power than of course the fact he kayoed Liston with one punch, knocked out George Foreman and stopped guys like Ron Lyle comes back at you.

He had it all speed, chin , heart, the fortitude to come back from adversity.The finest footwork in HW history. Terrific box office.

Im saying these things and i still feel like im underrating him.

Even if you accept he lost some of his fights he was handed the victory in...such as Jimmy Young, I can only conclude Ali would have come back to win in a rematch.

I've never remotely considered the Holmes and Berbick fights as part of the equation....Ali was seriously ill and drug dependant at that point.

mugabi wrote:I understand Ali's profile , after it slumped in the 1980's due to his illness, has soared and soared since the mid 1990s after Atlanta 96 and his iconisation in the internet age..........but I simply cant accept he could ever be overrated as a fighter.........there doesnt seem to be a single facet in which he could improve overall to make himself a more complete fighter.

...If people say power than of course the fact he kayoed Liston with one punch, knocked out George Foreman and stopped guys like Ron Lyle comes back at you....

He had it all speed, chin , heart, the fortitude to come back from adversity.The finest footwork in HW history. Terrific box office.

Im saying these things and i still feel like im underrating him.

Even if you accept he lost some of his fights he was handed the victory in...such as Jimmy Young, I can only conclude Ali would have come back to win in a rematch.

I've never remotely considered the Holmes and Berbick fights as part of the equation....Ali was seriously ill and drug dependant at that point.

Oh, dear

The Great John L wrote:

Robinson wrote:I have to agree with this one. I find it amazing how people are experts on classical and vintage age fighters
without ever having seen them fight. I know they go by what is written about them, but I have read lots
about some fighters and then watched them on film with my own eyes in several fights and It amazes
me how different a picture the written word created compared to the one I was actually seeing.

I understand what you are saying, and it is logical, but it's also logical to say that a large number now dismiss the old time fighters. How many times have you read posts commenting about pre 1900 fighters saying that they wouldn't stand a chance against a "modern" fighter because of their style, and yet they haven't ever seen them fight?

And I would say Ali gains more aura each year, but as Irene noted, he certainly deservers it. Tyson is probably losing traction now, because he stuck around too long.

Of course, I'd like to see more love for Louis. We do have footage of him, and she as hell looks pretty good to me.

Top 10 HWs of all time

1. Ali
(tie) Louis
Everybody else...

I think a lot of older people have great fondness fo Louis but sadly alot of people
do not even consider him. Now I am talking about casual and non fans here,
because all of us die hard fans have our own fetishes when it comes to fighters.

Ali and Tyson certainly are heradled because of endless docos, high light reels and
all the benefits of modern media from YT to Xbox. Whereas say some one like Louis
while he does have footage availabel most in generation dipshit for example do not
have the attention span nor the ability to view anything in black and white and thus
under rate considerably greats such as Louis.

As for die hard fans, well this forum is a good indication as to where many stand on
all of the above as we often have good argument and counter argument as to where
a fighter stands compared to another. We are very much in the minority and do not
have any power to really over rate or under rate a fighter. That is determined by
like many things, the mob of ignorance.

The last time I remember seeing Louis in a video game was Knockout Kings 2000.