BoxRec

As the title says, in your opinion who was the most complete fighter ever. They don't have to have won a title, anyone you like.

The fighter that could do it all, and had it all. Speed, power, chin, in fighting, out fighting, jab, footwork, natural ability etc....etc...

Ray Robinson

dempseyfire wrote:Ray Robinson

Yep,agreed.I dont see him having any glaring weakness.

Expug wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Ray Robinson

Yep,agreed.I dont see him having any glaring weakness.

Ray Robinson for me as well.

Young Wilfredo Gomez, circa the ages of 19-22. A simultaneously great offensive and defensive fighter with one of the most beautiful styles I've ever witnessed.

Harold Johnson

GranberryReturns wrote:Harold Johnson

Who was bested by Archie Moore.....

I would say the great Sugar Ray Leonard. He had it all. He even was cool under pressure.

Other complete fighters that I witnessed:
Roberto Duran...At lightweight, circa 1976-78, as complete as any other in history.

Marvin Hagler....What a fighter. He could do it all just like Duran and Leonard

Salvador Sanchez...Another complete boxer that had everything. He left us in his prime.

My point was simply that Archie could be mentioned in this group. As can Harold.

I like Monzon as well in this list.

sg1985 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:My point was simply that Archie could be mentioned in this group. As can Harold.

I like Monzon as well in this list.

I see what you mean. Personally I don't think there is particular fighter who was more complete than anyone else who could be mentioned on a list like this.

Except for Gomez.

It's hard to know what some of the fighters who were not filmed had to offer. But if you go by witnesses and journalists you can add some of the old names to this as well.

Though I'm not going to start down that path.....I know I'll get push back from the "video elite".

I'm sort of kidding here. It is hard to judge a fighter that can not currently be assessed other than by the writings of past witnesses.

There are great fighters on the list here no doubt.
I dont see how a case can be made for any fighter being more of a complete fighter than Robinson really.
I consider his career over the long haul also.Consistently a complete fighter for years.
Ive noticed a bit of a trend over the last couple years for people to actually under rate this guy a bit.
He was tried and true and if he isnt the greatest ever pound for pound,hes certainly in the picture.

The only problem with Robinson was that his head and upper body movement could be a bit static, leading him to take more punches than need be. Fortunately, his offense was so immense that this would normally leave the opponent in the fire zone. Still, though. He wasn't a top notch defensive fighter in my eyes. Very good when he wanted to be, but not upper tier.

Yeah,he may have relied on his chin more then he needed to.
But the only time he was stopped in 200 fights was the Maxim ordeal.
He was doing something right in that dept.

Ray Robinson

I got to give a shout-out to Ezzard Charles here

Arguably, the best resume of all-time, too.

King Carlos wrote:The only problem with Robinson was that his head and upper body movement could be a bit static, leading him to take more punches than need be. Fortunately, his offense was so immense that this would normally leave the opponent in the fire zone. Still, though. He wasn't a top notch defensive fighter in my eyes. Very good when he wanted to be, but not upper tier.

I find it hard to read a criticism of Robinson defensively when you're touting Gomez in his place. Wilfredo was never an elite defender, overwhelming over matched challengers doesn't make you Whitaker or Pep. Wilfredo was never hard to hit.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I got to give a shout-out to Ezzard Charles here

Arguably, the best resume of all-time, too.

The best resume belongs to Harry Greb!

Ricardo Lopez deserves a shout here, he was so good in all of those categories that his opponents nary had any control at a moment in their fights against him. The only guys who troubled him were the heavily draining Rosendo Alvarez, who outweighed him by at least 10 lbs. and another bigger man in Will Grigsby when he moved up to 108, yet he still came through victorious against both.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ricardo Lopez deserves a shout here, he was so good in all of those categories that his opponents nary had any control at a moment in their fights against him. The only guys who troubled him were the heavily draining Rosendo Alvarez, who outweighed him by at least 10 lbs. and another bigger man in Will Grigsby when he moved up to 108, yet he still came through victorious against both.

I'm twenty-six, & I believe he's the greatest pure talent I've ever seen in my lifetime.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

King Carlos wrote:The only problem with Robinson was that his head and upper body movement could be a bit static, leading him to take more punches than need be. Fortunately, his offense was so immense that this would normally leave the opponent in the fire zone. Still, though. He wasn't a top notch defensive fighter in my eyes. Very good when he wanted to be, but not upper tier.

I find it hard to read a criticism of Robinson defensively when you're touting Gomez in his place. Wilfredo was never an elite defender, overwhelming over matched challengers doesn't make you Whitaker or Pep. Wilfredo was never hard to hit.

You've either not seen much of a young Gomez (he started to deteriorate technically post-Zarate in my opinion, when he went the way of so many others who fall in love with their power) or haven't properly analyzed his bouts. He was one of the most silky-smooth defensive attackers I've ever seen, on par with Duran, except that he had far superior lateral movement (not to say he was more effective, as lateral movement simply wasn't a part of Duran's method). A complete technician. Never have I seen a fighter more beautiful to watch.

Give him a watch in some of this footage. This is the Gomez I'm talking about, not the bomber he became later in his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3kWnH-3IFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCvtOZRnO0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuoP5L2YnKY

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ricardo Lopez deserves a shout here, he was so good in all of those categories that his opponents nary had any control at a moment in their fights against him. The only guys who troubled him were the heavily draining Rosendo Alvarez, who outweighed him by at least 10 lbs. and another bigger man in Will Grigsby when he moved up to 108, yet he still came through victorious against both.

I'm twenty-six, & I believe he's the greatest pure talent I've ever seen in my lifetime.

I think he can be quite overrated, personally. He didn't prove nearly enough to merit the kind of praise he often receives. The opposition he was generally facing was ghastly, a few decent fighters aside. Obviously an excellent fighter, though. I think Jung-Koo Chang was a superior talent from the lower weights, personally.

King Carlos wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

King Carlos wrote:The only problem with Robinson was that his head and upper body movement could be a bit static, leading him to take more punches than need be. Fortunately, his offense was so immense that this would normally leave the opponent in the fire zone. Still, though. He wasn't a top notch defensive fighter in my eyes. Very good when he wanted to be, but not upper tier.

I find it hard to read a criticism of Robinson defensively when you're touting Gomez in his place. Wilfredo was never an elite defender, overwhelming over matched challengers doesn't make you Whitaker or Pep. Wilfredo was never hard to hit.

You've either not seen much of a young Gomez (he started to deteriorate technically post-Zarate in my opinion, when he went the way of so many others who fall in love with their power) or haven't properly analyzed his bouts. He was one of the most silky-smooth defensive attackers I've ever seen, on par with Duran, except that he had far superior lateral movement (not to say he was more effective, as lateral movement simply wasn't a part of Duran's method). A complete technician. Never have I seen a fighter more beautiful to watch.

Give him a watch in some of this footage. This is the Gomez I'm talking about, not the bomber he became later in his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3kWnH-3IFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCvtOZRnO0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuoP5L2YnKY

I grew up watching Gomez, he is one of my favorite fighters. I've seen every bit as much as you have and have no issue analyzing his bouts. He wasn't a great defensder, no if's ands or buts about it. That's not to say he led with his face, but nobody had trouble finding him. they had trouble beating him.

Give a watch to Carlos mendoza and Derrick Holmes. They both touched him up plenty.

Edit: Not overlooking your statement that you found him to be different post Zarate. I didn't see any difference. Great fighter for sure, great defender? Definitely not.

King Carlos wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ricardo Lopez deserves a shout here, he was so good in all of those categories that his opponents nary had any control at a moment in their fights against him. The only guys who troubled him were the heavily draining Rosendo Alvarez, who outweighed him by at least 10 lbs. and another bigger man in Will Grigsby when he moved up to 108, yet he still came through victorious against both.

I'm twenty-six, & I believe he's the greatest pure talent I've ever seen in my lifetime.

I think he can be quite overrated, personally. He didn't prove nearly enough to merit the kind of praise he often receives. The opposition he was generally facing was ghastly, a few decent fighters aside. Obviously an excellent fighter, though. I think Jung-Koo Chang was a superior talent from the lower weights, personally.

This I completely agree with. Chang, Gushiken & Yuh were all better imo.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

King Carlos wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I find it hard to read a criticism of Robinson defensively when you're touting Gomez in his place. Wilfredo was never an elite defender, overwhelming over matched challengers doesn't make you Whitaker or Pep. Wilfredo was never hard to hit.

You've either not seen much of a young Gomez (he started to deteriorate technically post-Zarate in my opinion, when he went the way of so many others who fall in love with their power) or haven't properly analyzed his bouts. He was one of the most silky-smooth defensive attackers I've ever seen, on par with Duran, except that he had far superior lateral movement (not to say he was more effective, as lateral movement simply wasn't a part of Duran's method). A complete technician. Never have I seen a fighter more beautiful to watch.

Give him a watch in some of this footage. This is the Gomez I'm talking about, not the bomber he became later in his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3kWnH-3IFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCvtOZRnO0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuoP5L2YnKY

I grew up watching Gomez, he is one of my favorite fighters. I've seen every bit as much as you have and have no issue analyzing his bouts. He wasn't a great defensder, no if's ands or buts about it. That's not to say he led with his face, but nobody had trouble finding him. they had trouble beating him.

Give a watch to Carlos mendoza and Derrick Holmes. They both touched him up plenty.

I've seen them. As I mentioned, I believe very strongly upon viewing pretty much all available footage of him that he began to slowly deteriorate as a technician prior to facing Sanchez. Post-Zarate, really. Those fights took place during that sort of transitional period for him. From about the Davila fight at age 19 to the Zarate fight at age 22 Gomez was as complete a technician as I've ever seen.

Of course you're going to get hit more than a purely defensive specialist if you're primarily an offensive fighter, that goes without saying. That doesn't mean an offensive fighter can't have great defense. Gomez was, along with Duran, one of the best at alternating between offensive and defensive positions seamlessly. A naturally smooth and aggressive counter-puncher who was wonderfully well-schooled in his art. His footwork, head and upper-body movement in general were all fanastic, and he used them very well when on the attack, utilizing the angles and momentum he gained from his shifts in movement to generate power and openings for his punches.

If you grew up on him, has it perhaps been a while since you've seen him fight? I suggest going back and analyzing some of his early bouts. The ones I posted being among his finest performances, in my opinion.