BoxRec

Officially, Tommy Ryan did not win a title fight from 1903-1907. He fought some fights that that were over the middleweight limit or were no-decisions.
I was just wondering if anyone could shed some light on a few things:

1.Why wasn't Ryan putting the title on the line?
2.He fought Philadelphia Jack O'Brien in a 6 round no-decision. Had O'Brien knocked Ryan out, would O'Brien have been the middleweight champion?
3. Any guess how Ryan would have done in say a 15-round title fights against O'Brien, Jack "Twin" Sullivan, and Tommy Burns, in 1903-1905.
4. Any other serious title contenders? (Besides Ketchel and Joe Thomas who fought for the vacant title in 1907)

After searching this was the best thread I found On Tommy Ryan.

I find it almost impossible To believe Tommy Ryan didn't fight Joe Choynski. There's so many near fights getting proposed in his career. A fight proposed with Joe Walcott. A fight proposed with bob Fitzsimmons (1901). I can't recall the exact date on the walcott.

While Ryan has a solid list of top 40 Fighter's he's missing so many top 20 fighters (of his era) not all time.
It's hard to get a read on him. He taught boxing to so many that I'd assume he has rather grand skills.

Greatest misses: It's alot.

Tommy Ryan Born 1870

Misses & potential years
Bob Fitzsimmons 1863 (1901)
James Corbett 1866 (1900)
Tom Sharkey 1873 (1898)
Joe Walcott 1883 (1900)
Joe Choynski 1868 (1899)
Peter Maher 1869 (1898)

Plus both Byers & Childs called him out.

Not sure at all how Peter Maher born almost same time didn't fight him (ryan) Maher has a million matches.

The only top 20 from the pioneer Era he fights is Mccoy & Root.

One of the single greatest tragedies in boxing was the police intervention in the Mccoy bout in Sep 1897 as this was Ryan revenge bout after Mccoy duked him pretending to be sick. Ryan was taking control & the stuff got stopped with both in their utter prime. This would of likely been the greatest bout of the decade in my estimation.

It would of been great to see him fight NP Jack Dempsey in the early part of the 1880 not when they fought in 1895 as that was an exhibition with a sick man who needed a pay day.

Still waiting on the book on him from Christopher Laforce.

I'm curious some options on who was better Tommy Ryan or Choynski. The two of them are really close in simulation. When I go through Ryan career fight by fight i'll get a better read on him. I have great respect for Mccoy & it appears whomever was better was a razor thin margin.

Just as I'd Assume Choynski & Ryan would be an extremely close competitive fight.

Thanks. I have been waiting almost 15 years for a response.

Maher was born in 1866. It appears that Ryan was very good, holding his own at lest with O'Brien and Root. two top heavyweight contenders of the time. He also gave McCoy some trouble in their fights and Carter, Moffat, Billy Smith, West etc were good opponents. As a welterweight an ATG in my opinion.

Some good points made.
He definably fought some good opponents, did not fight some others that would have been interesting. Not saying he ducked anyone. sometimes people think a guy is ducking a specific guy, when it may have been the other way around. Sometimes two guys just did not fight because of timing; two guys have to be available at the same time.

Well he definitely used the color line to avoid Barbados Joe Walcott. Walcott and O'Rourke followed Ryan all over the place to get a fight but he absolutely refused by claiming that he beat all the men who beat Walcott. Ryan's record lacks the density which Walcott's had with regard to fighting men who were bigger and considered better,

This morning I read the accounts of Ryan vs Root.
Jack is outstanding Root certainty proved he was superior. In a 6 round bout Draw. Root floored Ryan in round 2.
Root should have been facing him when Ryan vs West happened in 1901. In a 20 round bout.


The 2nd reading is Ryan vs O brien. Ryan got floored in the 5th round. O brien was said the of had the better of him in the first 4. Ryan got up at count of 8 then floored O brien with a stomach punch.
Last round was even. From my accounts it looks as if Ryan lost to O brien.

This is pretty significant as most people lost to O brien on the first encounter. Also it's noted that Ryan drawed the line on O brien in 1902. Jack O brien had to wait quite awhile for payback in 1904.

The fact that Tommy Ryan didn't separate himself from either of these 2 fighter's has me thinking he was a tad overrated.

Fighter's I would put ahead of him from his era.
Jack Root
Jack O Brien
Joe Gans
Jack Blackburn
Joe Choynski
Fitz
Charles Mccoy
Joe Walcott

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Tommy Ryan proved he was above the top 2nd tier fighters.
Tommy West
Mysterious Billy Smith
Jack Bonner
Dick O brien
Kid Carter

any fight with an opponent over the 2nd tier he was either coming up short such as the lost to Kid mccoy...
Or getting knock downed both Root & Philly O brien dropped him.

I think Root should clearly be rated over Ryan, He did better against Mccoy & could beat a better quality of opponent in George Gardner & Marvin Hart.
It's a shame the rematch with Ryan & Root proved a fake. I think they were very close in levels. But I think Root is slightly better.

Ryan would probably rate higher than George Gardner...but I think he's a bit of a fraud. Had a actually gave O brien a chance in 1902 or Root another chance he would have been exposed. Plus he certainly avoided walcott to not get exposed.
Just too many question's when every level up he's getting knocked downed or knocked out (mccoy).

It seems he has a pattern of doing a 6 round fight when he runs into trouble he never face's them again to avoid losing...
He did it too Philly & Root.

Can't over rate him doing that kinda stuff.

We can't prove for certain he was any better than Twin Sullivan who many beat. Ryan never faced him & it's certainly questionable he could hang with him. If Tommy Ryan is not better than Twin Sullivan he's likely not better than Tommy Burns or a Gunboat smith.

O Brien could beat Twin sully & Root even though he didn't face him did just fine against the lightheavy's types like Gardner & Hart (he beat once and lost in 12 rounds) I think Root would beat Twin sullivan. I'm not so certain Ryan would beat Twin Sullivan.

The reason i bring it up is because Twin basically the measuring stick from a 2nd tier fighter into a 1st tier in his era. Twin sullivan is planted right near the very top of 2nd tier. Twin Sullivan is basically the "gunboat smith" of Era 1. Even Tommy Burns had his struggles with Twin.

If Tommy Ryan can't beat twin sullivan he's not a top tier fighter

- With an 82-2-13 record, 932 rds of boxing, 68 KO record with only 1 KO loss, entering his mid 30s he was near the tolerance end of the dirty business side of boxing.

Only the sniffy running noses of the populace could fault him. He's definitely an all time P4Per and purt fair physical specimen for a fighter as well not to mention well educated for his day and a good looking guy for a fighter then. He lived to see his 78th birthday, so I challenge his critics to tell me how long before they expire. Gonna be hard to beat 78 even today.

US male life expectancy for the 2020s is 77 years per my google search...

Real good thread, guys.