BoxRec

Once every now and again a fighter comes along with real talent, a fighter who can box and fight on the inside. A fighter who can be an underdog and win. A fighter who can be a favorite and win. Andre won the Gold medal at the 2004 Olympics in Athens and turned pro late in 2004. A slow pro start but perhaps just too make sure of no slip ups, to remain undefeated and too be ready when the time comes to step up. Edison Miranda was Ward's first major test and Ward produced a shut out preformace agaisnt Miranda and Ward past the first tough test with ease. Then came the Super Six, Ward certainly was not the favourite to being with , many tipping the european's to be the front runners. That seemed the case with Abraham and Froch defeating the other two Amercians in the Super Six Andre Dirrell and Jermain Taylor. That left Ward to take on the tournemnt favourite Mikkel Kessler who many thought woulod beat Ward, however Ward domiated the fight and won the fight. This was a major step for Ward and because of this victory many view Ward as the best Supermiddle in the world. The next stage of the Super Six saw Ward take on Jermain Taylor's very dangerous replacement Allan Green. Ward again produced a shut out preformance and was the first to qualify into the semi-finals. With Kessler having to leave the tournement because of eye injury and will be inactive for 9 months , Ward 3rd matchup agaisnt Dirrell now becomes a semifinal with the winner going into the final to take on ether Froch or Abraham. The match up agaisnt Dirrell will be one of the hardest of Wards career and a matchmaker dream of a fight, the most gifted fighters at supermiddle facing each other is certainly a mouth watering clash. If Ward is too win agaisnt Dirrell and then go on to win in the final, this means in Wards last 5 fights not including Shelby Pudwill ( a warm up fight before the Kessler match) he would have beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Dirrell and ethier Froch/Abraham. If Ward is too beat them all he a done something very unique, he has pretty much with the exception of Lucain Bute cleaned up the supermiddleweight divsion and will become on top of most pound for pound lists. This is all if and buts and Ward could well go onto lose to Direll or a Froch but we could be about to witness start of greatness, i believe we already have.

I think Froch would beat him and Bute would kill him. Greatness lasted one thread.

I think Ward would beat Froch based on the huge speed and skill disparity. Not so sure about Bute.

sg1985 wrote:

crusader wrote:I think Ward would beat Froch based on the huge speed and skill disparity. Not so sure about Bute.

Bute wouldn't be any version of a title holder if this lot weren't tied up in the super six IMO, Ward and Dirrell would beat him, I'd fancy Kessler, Abraham and Froch to do the same too.

Really? I think Bute has a lot to offer. I'm still not sure quite where he fits in, but I definitely regard him as one of the top 5. I think Bute would beat Kessler, who I believe is declining a lot now. Froch would take far too many flush shots and get knocked out. Bute is a massive puncher. Abraham vs Bute is a toss-up; I think Bute would be really cautious. The Andres are the picks at the moment; Dirrell with his speed and Ward with his ring smarts & naughty tactics.

I think any of them could beat each other on any given night, but I do concede that Andre Ward has shown the least weakness so far.

I think Bute would beat AA. Abraham is somewhat overrated in my opinion, as he has really done nothing meaningful at his new weight, and never beat any top names at 160. I don't think his win over Taylor was more impressive than Bute's wins over Bika, Andrade, or Berrio, all of whom were career SMWs and top ten fighters. The other fights would be close to 50/50 for me. Bute has a decent resume, and I haven't really seen much that make him a clear underdog against anyone in the tournament.

sg1985 wrote:

Asterix wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Bute wouldn't be any version of a title holder if this lot weren't tied up in the super six IMO, Ward and Dirrell would beat him, I'd fancy Kessler, Abraham and Froch to do the same too.

Really? I think Bute has a lot to offer. I'm still not sure quite where he fits in, but I definitely regard him as one of the top 5. I think Bute would beat Kessler, who I believe is declining a lot now. Froch would take far too many flush shots and get knocked out. Bute is a massive puncher. Abraham vs Bute is a toss-up; I think Bute would be really cautious. The Andres are the picks at the moment; Dirrell with his speed and Ward with his ring smarts & naughty tactics.

But what are you basing this on? He's fought left over guys who've been whipped by guys in this tournament. I'm yet to see him fight a fighter I'm impressed with when he gets the W.

I'm basing it on all his attributes, including his style. I was impressed he beat Librado Andrade so quickly in their 2nd fight. Bika wasn't "whipped" by any of the guys in the tournament, and would be a tough night for all of them. The first Andrade fight aside, Bute has been dominating like few champs do, even in today's alphabet soup world. I think Bute can go up a gear. I've seen his training and listened to what he has to say, and he's extremely dedicated and appears to be intelligent. He has also learnt from his mistakes, getting better and better.

sg1985 wrote:

Asterix wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Bute wouldn't be any version of a title holder if this lot weren't tied up in the super six IMO, Ward and Dirrell would beat him, I'd fancy Kessler, Abraham and Froch to do the same too.

Really? I think Bute has a lot to offer. I'm still not sure quite where he fits in, but I definitely regard him as one of the top 5. I think Bute would beat Kessler, who I believe is declining a lot now. Froch would take far too many flush shots and get knocked out. Bute is a massive puncher. Abraham vs Bute is a toss-up; I think Bute would be really cautious. The Andres are the picks at the moment; Dirrell with his speed and Ward with his ring smarts & naughty tactics.

But what are you basing this on? He's fought left over guys who've been whipped by guys in this tournament. I'm yet to see him fight a fighter I'm impressed with when he gets the W.

Bika was never been whipped by anyone in the tournament, and Bute outclassed him. Berrio was never whipped by anyone in the tournament and Bute beat him easily. Andrade was beaten well by Kessler over the distance, but Bute stopped him early in their rematch. He struggled in the first fight, but he was outclassing Andrade through out the first eleven, and everyone in the tournament has had a fight in which they had shaky moments. Kessler was badly rocked by Sartison, Froch was dropped by Taylor, Gevor was competative with AA until the KO and even Oral won the first three rounds against him, Dirrell was dropped by a bum, and Ward was dropped by Darnell Boone and hurt by Kenny Kost.

Bute has outclassed three top ten SMWs and has knockout victories over decent fighters like Zuniga and Miranda. I give him a better chance against the other top SMWs than you do, although he could very well lose to a couple.

sg1985 wrote:He's dominated second tier fighters. Until he fights any of the guys knocking about the super six and wins I won't be impressed.

That's fair enough. And I'll continue to think he deserves to mix with those guys in the Super Six, and would probably beat a few of them.

I don't think you should discredit some of these fighters simply because they had lost prior to fighting Bute. Andrade lost to Kessler, but he was also a top ten fighter and had wins over Stieglitz, Mack, and Tyspko. Berrio knocked out Stieglitz and Mack, both top ten fighters. Bute beat Miranda much easier than Ward did. Zuniga is not a great name, but he has some decent wins, and was competative in a WBO world title fight against Dennis Inkin.

I have seen enough to give him a decent chance against any SMW in the world.

sg1985 wrote:

Asterix wrote:

sg1985 wrote:He's dominated second tier fighters. Until he fights any of the guys knocking about the super six and wins I won't be impressed.

That's fair enough. And I'll continue to think he deserves to mix with those guys in the Super Six, and would probably beat a few of them.

I think he deserves to mix with them, I just don't see why he gets the adulation he does when he's yet to beat one of the top guys at the weight. I don't think he's a bad fighter either, just not deserving of the place he gets. He's fighting Jesse Brinkley next for gods sake. We might never see him fight any super six fighters either, Pascal must look a decent option for him career wise after Brinkley.

Brinkley's a mandatory, unfortunately. Not that there're many top boxers to choose from at the moment at 168 lbs.

sg1985 wrote:

crusader wrote:I don't think you should discredit some of these fighters simply because they had lost prior to fighting Bute. Andrade lost to Kessler, but he was also a top ten fighter and had wins over Stieglitz, Mack, and Tyspko. Berrio knocked out Stieglitz and Mack, both top ten fighters. Bute beat Miranda much easier than Ward did. Zuniga is not a great name, but he has some decent wins, and was competative in a WBO world title fight against Dennis Inkin.

Didn't Stieglitz stop Berrio too? I'm not automatically discrediting them, I'm just showing why so far it isn't the most impressive resume. Some are good fighter, I know that. I just fail to see why he gets considered the best smw about, when the other top guys are in a tournament against each other.

I think most people know Bute has a lot to prove, and they don't consider him the best. The best is yet to be determined. Bute just currently has the most points on Boxrec, hence he is the number 1.

Berrio avenged the loss to Stieglitz.

sg1985 wrote:I actually like Brinkley having seen the first series of the contender, I will be cheering him on for the win, but he is the inferior fighter, by some margin. Wasn't he supposed to fight Bika originally for the wbo, or am I making that up?

I'm not sure. Brinkley's shite though. He beat a very poor, slow, flat-footed Curtis Stevens and now here we are. Bika would beat Brinkley, imo.

It'll be interesting to look back on this in a year or two. Boxing throws so many surprises our way.

sg1985 wrote:

crusader wrote:I don't think you should discredit some of these fighters simply because they had lost prior to fighting Bute. Andrade lost to Kessler, but he was also a top ten fighter and had wins over Stieglitz, Mack, and Tyspko. Berrio knocked out Stieglitz and Mack, both top ten fighters. Bute beat Miranda much easier than Ward did. Zuniga is not a great name, but he has some decent wins, and was competative in a WBO world title fight against Dennis Inkin.

Didn't Stieglitz stop Berrio too? I'm not automatically discrediting them, I'm just showing why so far it isn't the most impressive resume. Some are good fighter, I know that. I just fail to see why he gets considered the best smw about, when the other top guys are in a tournament against each other.

Do Dirrell or AA have really impressive resumes though? What have they done at 168? Dirrell lost a close fight to Froch, beat AA, and has a bunch of other unimpressive wins. AA (Dirrell's best win) beat a likely shot Taylor (who now has everyone convincing him to retire), and lost badly to Dirrell. He has a bunch of wins at 160 over fighters who would be considered secord, third, or even fourth class. I don't see what they have done that is so much more impressive than what Bute has done.

I also don't think Bute being left out of the SS is relevant to his ability.

crusader wrote:I also don't think Bute being left out of the SS is relevant to his ability.

He didn't fit in. 3 Europeans, 3 Americans, and various other reasons. Showtime decided not to approach him. I'm not sure if HBO also had something to do with it.

You said you were trying to show why Bute doesn't have the most impressive resume. Based on this, I assumed you were implying that the fighters you picked to beat him had impressive ones. If that is not the case, I don't see why you would focus only on the shortcomings of Bute's record when the dialog pertains to how he would all fare against the other top SMWs. I would look at the resumes of all parties involved in these hypothetical matchups.

Abraham's first win over Miranda is arguably the best result on his record when you consider the state Taylor was in, but he had just as much trouble in that fight as Bute had in his original encounter with Andrade (this seems to be overlooked by everyone, while Bute's first fight with Andrade is always brought up). I'm not denying that is a good win, but Dirrell and Abraham have not done a whole lot more (if more at all) than Bute. Bute gets a lot of critiicism, so I'm confused as to why a fighter like AA continues to recieve high approvals and respect from so many people.

I don't rank Bute at #1, but I can see why some people position him so highly. After all, the fighters in the tournament have had just two fights (bar Green), and only Ward has more than a single victory. Simply being a part of the tournament shouldn't inflate their rating, Winning fights should, and their has only been a limited amount of that so far.

Anyway, my comments at this point are somewhat trivial, because I do understand what you are getting at. I hope Bute gets a fight with the winner of the tournament or Pascal. Brinkley is a bad opponent, and if Bute continues fighting guys like that, my opinion of him will certainly change. Moreover, his chances against elite opponents will drop. Fighting bums does not prepare anyone for the best.

I think Andre Ward is a very dull operator.

His reluctance to leave his hometown is not in keeping with the spirit of the tournament.

If Abraham and Froch had their last fights at home, they would still be undefeated.

If Ward used his nut like that against Kessler in Denmark, he would have been disqualified - absolutely no doubt about that.

Now, he is playing the "Im the champ" card in the Dirrell discussions as to why Dirrell has to go to his hometown to fight.

Kessler and Froch never gave it large, when they had titles to risk.

Isn't Bute fighting Jeff Lacy's massuese next?

Or was it Allan Green's postman?

G0mez wrote:I think Andre Ward is a very dull operator.

His reluctance to leave his hometown is not in keeping with the spirit of the tournament.

If Abraham and Froch had their last fights at home, they would still be undefeated.

If Ward used his nut like that against Kessler in Denmark, he would have been disqualified - absolutely no doubt about that.

Now, he is playing the "Im the champ" card in the Dirrell discussions as to why Dirrell has to go to his hometown to fight.

Kessler and Froch never gave it large, when they had titles to risk.

I agree with every one of those points. I'm convinced Showtime reaallly want Ward to win and will do what they can to ensure it.

"andre wrad" beat kessler but otherwise has looked like dogshit.

he won't even fight andre dirrell - showtime have had to send legal letters to the pair of the.
enough of this special talent that comes along every generation rubbish.

i hope someone like arthur abraham nails him to the canvas.

Newport Daz wrote:

G0mez wrote:I think Andre Ward is a very dull operator.

His reluctance to leave his hometown is not in keeping with the spirit of the tournament.

If Abraham and Froch had their last fights at home, they would still be undefeated.

If Ward used his nut like that against Kessler in Denmark, he would have been disqualified - absolutely no doubt about that.

Now, he is playing the "Im the champ" card in the Dirrell discussions as to why Dirrell has to go to his hometown to fight.

Kessler and Froch never gave it large, when they had titles to risk.

I agree with every one of those points. I'm convinced Showtime reaallly want Ward to win and will do what they can to ensure it.

Showtime want one of the Americans to win, for obvious reasons. They want a boxer who will help them rival HBO. Showtime reckon Andre Ward is better than Andre Dirrell. The whole tournament has turned out to be a mess.

Berrevoets24 wrote:Once every now and again a fighter comes along with real talent, a fighter who can box and fight on the inside. A fighter who can be an underdog and win. A fighter who can be a favorite and win. Andre won the Gold medal at the 2004 Olympics in Athens and turned pro late in 2004. A slow pro start but perhaps just too make sure of no slip ups, to remain undefeated and too be ready when the time comes to step up. Edison Miranda was Ward's first major test and Ward produced a shut out preformace agaisnt Miranda and Ward past the first tough test with ease. Then came the Super Six, Ward certainly was not the favourite to being with , many tipping the european's to be the front runners. That seemed the case with Abraham and Froch defeating the other two Amercians in the Super Six Andre Dirrell and Jermain Taylor. That left Ward to take on the tournemnt favourite Mikkel Kessler who many thought woulod beat Ward, however Ward domiated the fight and won the fight. This was a major step for Ward and because of this victory many view Ward as the best Supermiddle in the world. The next stage of the Super Six saw Ward take on Jermain Taylor's very dangerous replacement Allan Green. Ward again produced a shut out preformance and was the first to qualify into the semi-finals. With Kessler having to leave the tournement because of eye injury and will be inactive for 9 months , Ward 3rd matchup agaisnt Dirrell now becomes a semifinal with the winner going into the final to take on ether Froch or Abraham. The match up agaisnt Dirrell will be one of the hardest of Wards career and a matchmaker dream of a fight, the most gifted fighters at supermiddle facing each other is certainly a mouth watering clash. If Ward is too win agaisnt Dirrell and then go on to win in the final, this means in Wards last 5 fights not including Shelby Pudwill ( a warm up fight before the Kessler match) he would have beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Dirrell and ethier Froch/Abraham. If Ward is too beat them all he a done something very unique, he has pretty much with the exception of Lucain Bute cleaned up the supermiddleweight divsion and will become on top of most pound for pound lists. This is all if and buts and Ward could well go onto lose to Direll or a Froch but we could be about to witness start of greatness, i believe we already have.

ward is shite..he is a world class hugger...he is too scared to fight out of his hometown cos he knows he would either get KTFO or disqualified...and wow he beat Miranda and Green...he only beat Kessler cos he butted him all night and hugged him after landing a girlie jab..he is a total yank hype job..

Bute and Abraham are the two i like in this division, though its been proven that Abraham is open to being outpointed by boxer/mover types like Dirrell so he'll always have that vulnerability.

Although i think Ward is a very talented fighter and stands a great chance of winning the tournament, his style is unapealing and i cant say i'm even remotely excited about watching any of his future fights. I'd much prefer Abraham or Froch to win the super six. Then go on to fight Bute in what would surely be a cracker of a fight.

Andre Ward's obvious pessimism about leaving his home country, or in fact, his home town, should've led to some consequences - like the promoters leaving his arse out of the Super Six.