BoxRec

I watched it last night for the first time in ages and while I'm sure it's been discussed before I thought it would be interesting to bring it up for the many new posters.

In particular I'd like to get your comments on
1. The substance in Clay's eyes.
2.Liston's alleged shoulder injury.

In my opinion, Liston came in over confident, but soon found out the hard way that Clay was for real. When Clay was a sitting duck for Liston in the 5th rd, and still managed to weather the storm in good shape I think it broke Sonny mentally. The ointment on the gloves hadn't worked, he'd been hurt in the 2nd, his face was getting busted up and he had no answer for Clay's hand and footspeed. Plus, in the 3rd I think, Liston had caught Clay flush with a lefthook to the jaw with little effect. The last round was all Clay, though it appeared there was nothing wrong with Liston's shoulder. In short, I believe Liston knew he was going to be stopped at some point and so quit on his stool.

Seamus wrote:I watched it last night for the first time in ages and while I'm sure it's been discussed before I thought it would be interesting to bring it up for the many new posters.

In particular I'd like to get your comments on
1. The substance in Clay's eyes.
2.Liston's alleged shoulder injury.

In my opinion, Liston came in over confident, but soon found out the hard way that Clay was for real. When Clay was a sitting duck for Liston in the 5th rd, and still managed to weather the storm in good shape I think it broke Sonny mentally. The ointment on the gloves hadn't worked, he'd been hurt in the 2nd, his face was getting busted up and he had no answer for Clay's hand and footspeed. Plus, in the 3rd I think, Liston had caught Clay flush with a lefthook to the jaw with little effect. The last round was all Clay, though it appeared there was nothing wrong with Liston's shoulder. In short, I believe Liston knew he was going to be stopped at some point and so quit on his stool.

Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

Possibly. you can see Liston coming apart mentally as the fight progresses. And it actually is happening in real time on the film. His body language is clearly confident and dominant going in, and within a round or two he is sending an entirely different message to Clay and to the world.

The last round of this fight may be the explanation for the first round of their next fight.

yancey wrote:Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

Why would beating up your opponent and stealing his heart make for a tainted win?

Well put Buzz, and I'll add that I don't see how the first fight could possibly have been tainted. The action was quite good and Clay's handwork was all over Liston's face.

Inb4GrancloneNDarlingcatfite

Seamus wrote:Well put Buzz, and I'll add that I don't see how the first fight could possibly have been tainted. The action was quite good and Clay's handwork was all over Liston's face.

Liston's next fight after Ali is on You Tube somewhere. It's a great fight to watch because I think it clearly demonstrates why Liston would always have a very tough time with Ali. His short fights with Patterson simply don't offer insight as to his ongoing delivery style. Check it out, there is literally no way I can imagine that Liston could take that style and parlay it to a win over Ali....unles he just got a perfectly timed shot, a hail mary sort of moment. Even then he would have to contend with the difficulty factor of nailing such a remarkably slippery opponent perfectly AND a granite chin. He couldnt even do it when Clay was blinded.....

I thought one of the US mags had photos of his swollen bicep after the torn tendon? I recall something along these lines.

The substance is usually attibuted to some sort of astringent or linament, no? He is alledged to have done the same against Williams & Machen.

As for quitting, while I've no doubt that Liston really didn't fancy it any longer, Ali was the one who needed some cajoling to come out for the 5th by Dundee?

Orb...good point, that may have been the moment when Clay grew up. Imagine going out blind knowing that somewhere in that murkey fog, Sonny Liston was lurking and wanted to take your head off. I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I'm leaving my corner.

Hell yeah, me neither. Not without a cricket bat.

orbtastic wrote:Hell yeah, me neither. Not without a cricket bat.

Your blind, He's already got a left hook and a right cross, and you're going to hand him a bat as well? Now that's courage.

The Great John L wrote:

yancey wrote:Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

Why would beating up your opponent and stealing his heart make for a tainted win?

Well, maybe the word "bizarre" as far as the first Liston-Ali match would be more applicable. I think Ali would have beaten Liston that night anyway, but it was just wrong to see someone holding the most prestigious title in sports (at least at that time) give it up sitting on his stool. It left a lot of knowledgeable people, Rocky Marciano included, feeling very hollow about just what had transpired.

I do wish the Boston rematch, late in '64, had come off. Sonny was supposedly primed and in top shape for that one before Ali had to pull out. This would have also come off before the assassination of Malcolm X, which my intuition tells me may have had a bit to do with Sonny doing what he did in Lewiston, ME, 5/25/65. Sonny was spooked by the death threat rumours swirling around that fight. He was a very sad man that night in the dressing room afterward. Man, how that must have grated Sonny to lay on the canvas looking up at Ali, acting the fool.

btw, "tainted" is not nearly a strong enough word to apply to that second affair.

It stunk up the world.

yancey, I don't disagree completely. However it was all on Sonny and the choices he made. Unless he was really discombobulated, and then it's about a punch that is simply difficult to understand. However the forensic review of that punch does not rule out discombobulation. Nor does it confirm same.

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey, I don't disagree completely. However it was all on Sonny and the choices he made. Unless he was really discombobulated, and then it's about a punch that is simply difficult to understand. However the forensic review of that punch does not rule out discombobulation. Nor does it confirm same.

BB....even if we disagree on certain things, I think it is generally amiable.

I do hope a certain contributor that keeps calling me Gran Jr will notice that I said Ali was probably going to beat Liston that night in '64, even if Sonny had kept fighting.

Not sure if the real Gran ever gave Ali that much credit.

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey, I don't disagree completely. However it was all on Sonny and the choices he made. Unless he was really discombobulated, and then it's about a punch that is simply difficult to understand. However the forensic review of that punch does not rule out discombobulation. Nor does it confirm same.

BB....even if we disagree on certain things, I think it is generally amiable.

I do hope a certain contributor that keeps calling me Gran Jr will notice that I said Ali was probably going to beat Liston that night in '64, even if Sonny had kept fighting.

Not sure if the real Gran ever gave Ali that much credit.

I believe that gran HONESTLY believes that Ali was a trumped up phony through and through. His honesty was rare as his opinion was odd. He seemed to follow a boxing "orthodox religion". He could not bring himself to believe that you could operate outside the rules of orthodox discipline and be successful. At BEST gran thinks that Ali lived the life of "Chauncey Gardner" fella portrayed by the Actor Peter Sellers in the movie "Being There". He bumbled his way from one victory to another as a matter of million to won odds happenstance. Or at worst every one of his wins were bought and paid for. Gran didn't have time for my slackjaw dull sensibilities but I never took it personal, cuz anyone who disagreed with him was from the same tribe lol.

Gran had a boxing dogma that was absolute and pat. He was a man who may have often been wrong, but he was never in doubt.

yancey wrote:

Seamus wrote:I watched it last night for the first time in ages and while I'm sure it's been discussed before I thought it would be interesting to bring it up for the many new posters.

In particular I'd like to get your comments on
1. The substance in Clay's eyes.
2.Liston's alleged shoulder injury.

In my opinion, Liston came in over confident, but soon found out the hard way that Clay was for real. When Clay was a sitting duck for Liston in the 5th rd, and still managed to weather the storm in good shape I think it broke Sonny mentally. The ointment on the gloves hadn't worked, he'd been hurt in the 2nd, his face was getting busted up and he had no answer for Clay's hand and footspeed. Plus, in the 3rd I think, Liston had caught Clay flush with a lefthook to the jaw with little effect. The last round was all Clay, though it appeared there was nothing wrong with Liston's shoulder. In short, I believe Liston knew he was going to be stopped at some point and so quit on his stool.

Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

You mean Ali jumping about in hysteria & screaming at Liston to get up in the rematch didn't indicate to you he was, "bothered?"

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:

Seamus wrote:I watched it last night for the first time in ages and while I'm sure it's been discussed before I thought it would be interesting to bring it up for the many new posters.

In particular I'd like to get your comments on
1. The substance in Clay's eyes.
2.Liston's alleged shoulder injury.

In my opinion, Liston came in over confident, but soon found out the hard way that Clay was for real. When Clay was a sitting duck for Liston in the 5th rd, and still managed to weather the storm in good shape I think it broke Sonny mentally. The ointment on the gloves hadn't worked, he'd been hurt in the 2nd, his face was getting busted up and he had no answer for Clay's hand and footspeed. Plus, in the 3rd I think, Liston had caught Clay flush with a lefthook to the jaw with little effect. The last round was all Clay, though it appeared there was nothing wrong with Liston's shoulder. In short, I believe Liston knew he was going to be stopped at some point and so quit on his stool.

Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

You mean Ali jumping about in hysteria & screaming at Liston to get up in the rematch didn't indicate to you he was, "bothered?"

Point conceded.

It is an amazing fight and something of a major moment in the sport. I’d also add that there are so many factors that make conspiracies abound.

On one side the basic idea going in was that

1 – Liston was dominant. He’d crushed Paterson twice. He’d had his share of wars with hard men like Williams etc… He was an intimidating presence who seemingly could not be denied victory.
2 – Ali had been hurt by Banks and floored by Cooper, two guys Liston would have chewed up. He had also struggled with Jones. Ali was just about getting by and showed no signs of the durability that would in the end be the hallmark of his claim to be the greatest. Imagine though… he is dropped by Banks and Cooper but takes Liston’s best shot? It’s understandable that there were conspiracy theories.

But factors that weren’t being considered

1 – Liston had fought 3 rounds in 3 years, none of them competitive. Psychologically he had to be resting on his laurels. He was also not a clean living athlete and was not in the shape he was in during his ascent to the title.
2 – Ali had an iron will. His loud mouth may have been at odds with the better mannered society of the time and so it was misinterpreted. Ali/Clay had amazing physical and mental resolve. This had not been proven over and over like it would be in the 70s. His greatness at that moment was unknown.

Maybe if Liston had understood going in that this was going to be a long hard and gruelling fight then perhaps he could have done better. Foreman would make the same mistake ten years later.

It is a shame the rematch was postponed. Liston would have done better. He would more than likely still have lost but it would been another legacy fight for Ali.

Granberry always claimed that the odds on Ali shortened substantially before the fight. Out of interest can anyone verify this?

Ezz I think that odds tightening on wide fights is ALWAYS the case. It's a statistical mainstay that folks will always take long odds in hopes of a hail mary. So I'm not sure that's much of a revelation. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true...I'd be VERY surprised if it was not true.

BoxBuzz wrote:Ezz I think that odds tightening on wide fights is ALWAYS the case. It's a statistical mainstay that folks will always take long odds in hopes of a hail mary. So I'm not sure that's much of a revelation. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true...I'd be VERY surprised if it was not true.

Yes, makes sense.

Damn! Another great conspiracy theory ruined!

Some interesting comments and happenings right after the 1st fight.
Liston claims Clay never hurt him, but he requires plastic surgery and stitches. Liston claims he injured his left arm in the 1st round after missing with a left hook and feeling something snap. He insists he couldn't jab after the injury. Liston's manager Jack Nilon claims he injured the same shoulder in training before the fight, but not seriously. After 3 and a half hours of examination by 8 physicians in an X-ray room, it is confirmed that Liston did indeed suffer an injury to the long head of the his biceps tendon of the left shoulder. He does not require surgery and is released with his arm in a sling.

Thanks, Seamus

Just like to point out now that Marcel Cerdan went down with the ship when he injured his arm!

That's just the thing though Ezzard. I'm not convinced Liston really hurt his shoulder.

Because I'm such a big Liston fan

BUMP

Damn...I used to be able to make my point rather articulately when I was younger....now I just sort of blather and mumble about.