BoxRec

I'm sick of people saying that Leonard waited til Hagler had slipped. Had Leonard not slipped. He had fought once in over 5 years and had NEVER fought at middle weight. He also had eye problems.

Yet he waited until the "right time" to fight Hagler. 2 1/2 years before the Leonard fight, Hagler was fighting Hamsho and looking damn good in that fight. Yes he had two wars with Hearns and Mugabi, but Leonard was 5 years past his prime and also the betting underdog.

It was a massive acheivement for Leonard and if Hagler was the better fighter he would have found a way to win. Hagler fought the wrong fight. He switched to an orthodox stance in the early rounds and paid the price. Leonard proved that even though he was well past his prime, ring rusty and a stone over his natural weight division, he was the better fighter PERIOD.

Keith, this is one topic that will run and run...

Glad you came out swinging with your argument. Think I'll sit back and watch this one unfold...

I’ll agree that it was a great achievement. I’ll also have to say that Leonard actually said he’d seen that Hagler had slipped in the Mugabi fight. Those were his words.

I also don’t think he should have been allowed to leap-frog Hearns for his shot at the title in the way that he did.

Just for the record (again) I thought it was close and deserved win for Leonard.

At the time, the consensus opinion was that it would be the end of Leonard's boxing career.

No doubt it was a great achievement. I think a lot of people were pissed off at Hagler for giving away the early rounds and they took it out on Leonard. His in-ring performance was splendid and I thought he deserved the decision. Outside of the ring it was his typical crap like the circus tent ring, stealing away Tommy's rematch and 12 rounds. I hate no human like Ray Leonard, but he deserved that fight and Hagler let it happen.

Leonard was given the decision & that is set in stone!

I'm not going to argue over who I thought did or didn't win because in all honesty, its academic now!

However, I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on a couple of things:

1. That Leonard would NOT agree to a 15 round fight?

2. That Leonard put other conditions which benefited him & not Hagler?

keithmoonhangover wrote:I'm sick of people saying that Leonard waited til Hagler had slipped. Had Leonard not slipped. He had fought once in over 5 years and had NEVER fought at middle weight. He also had eye problems.

Yet he waited until the "right time" to fight Hagler. 2 1/2 years before the Leonard fight, Hagler was fighting Hamsho and looking damn good in that fight. Yes he had two wars with Hearns and Mugabi, but Leonard was 5 years past his prime and also the betting underdog.

It was a massive acheivement for Leonard and if Hagler was the better fighter he would have found a way to win. Hagler fought the wrong fight. He switched to an orthodox stance in the early rounds and paid the price. Leonard proved that even though he was well past his prime, ring rusty and a stone over his natural weight division, he was the better fighter PERIOD.

We agree. Again.

Rocky Balboa wrote:Leonard was given the decision & that is set in stone!

I'm not going to argue over who I thought did or didn't win because in all honesty, its academic now!

However, I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on a couple of things:

1. That Leonard would NOT agree to a 15 round fight?

2. That Leonard put other conditions which benefited him & not Hagler?

15 rounds would have suited Hagler BUT I believe both Hearns and Mugabi were scheduled for 12, so it's not as simple as saying Leonard screwed him.

At the time Ray was coming back off a long lay-off and was an unknown quantity. Nobody knew what he had left (if anything). Hagler had to be a big favourite but it was Hagler who was more worn out than Leonard.

Hagler wanted the fight no matter what. I think he just thought that sooner or later he'd get to Leonard. And to be fair he nearly did. Ray looks totally spent at the end.

Meh. Hagler did the same thing with an old, fat Duran (imagine what would've happened had that Duran fought a prime Monzon? He'd have been diced, boxed, & shipped back home along the Panama canal ), drastically under-performing against an over-matched foe.

Much the same story against Leonard. His performance there, as with Duran, could've been so much more. His fans were aching for it.

I had the fight scored 114-114 a draw. For the record. But I agree, Hagler fought a terrible fight as if he was of looking foolish like Duran did against Leonard in their 2nd fight or something, he was way too cautious, gave away far too many rounds. So although I'm a bigger fan of Hagler than I am of Leonard. I really can't argue that Hagler deserved the decision. Hagler fought on even terms with a guy who going in was seen as a longshot to say the least. Under those circumstances you can see why the judges would've given a little more credit to Leonard's performance as it was so unexpected.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:I'm sick of people saying that Leonard waited til Hagler had slipped. Had Leonard not slipped. He had fought once in over 5 years and had NEVER fought at middle weight. He also had eye problems.

Yet he waited until the "right time" to fight Hagler. 2 1/2 years before the Leonard fight, Hagler was fighting Hamsho and looking damn good in that fight. Yes he had two wars with Hearns and Mugabi, but Leonard was 5 years past his prime and also the betting underdog.

It was a massive acheivement for Leonard and if Hagler was the better fighter he would have found a way to win. Hagler fought the wrong fight. He switched to an orthodox stance in the early rounds and paid the price. Leonard proved that even though he was well past his prime, ring rusty and a stone over his natural weight division, he was the better fighter PERIOD.

We agree. Again.

Bloomin' 'eck.

Rocky Balboa wrote:Leonard was given the decision & that is set in stone!

I'm not going to argue over who I thought did or didn't win because in all honesty, its academic now!

However, I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on a couple of things:

1. That Leonard would NOT agree to a 15 round fight?

2. That Leonard put other conditions which benefited him & not Hagler?

1. As has already been mentioned. Hagler's fights against Hearns and Mugabi were both 12 rounders.

2. All Hagler had to do was say "No." to these conditions. He could have made a counter offer.

You can't counter any Leonard offer, you take it or leave it. I'm so sick of people justifying bullshit with he didn't have to take it. Yes, he signed the contract so it's on him. That doesn't make Leonard's antics cool. Manny is pulling the same crap now.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You can't counter any Leonard offer, you take it or leave it. I'm so sick of people justifying bullshit with he didn't have to take it. Yes, he signed the contract so it's on him. That doesn't make Leonard's antics cool. Manny is pulling the same crap now.

Then why didn't Hagler leave it? Let me tell you why. Becasue Hagler thought he was going to butcher Leonard. Conditions or not, Hagler was the betting favourite and favoured by most of the journalists. Leonard beat him fair and square.

Where did I say Leonard didn't beat him fair and square? I said exactly the opposite, but Leonard's negotiating tactics were among the gayest in the history of the sport. Only an imbecile would refute that.

He didn't leave it because Leonard was the biggest payday in the sport and more importantly Hagler was jealous of all the acclaim Leonard got. He hated his guts and would have fought him under any conditions. Marvin wanted to prove that he was the better man. It backfired when he tried to outbox him early and Ray easily took the first four rounds imo. That was too much of a lead. I won money on that fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Where did I say Leonard didn't beat him fair and square? I said exactly the opposite, but Leonard's negotiating tactics were among the gayest in the history of the sport. Only an imbecile would refute that.

He didn't leave it because Leonard was the biggest payday in the sport and more importantly Hagler was jealous of all the acclaim Leonard got. He hated his guts and would have fought him under any conditions. Marvin wanted to prove that he was the better man. It backfired when he tried to outbox him early and Ray easily took the first four rounds imo. That was too much of a lead. I won money on that fight.

Ok. You seem to be an expert ion this fight. What stipulations did Leonard 'insist' on?

The circus tent ring and the 15 rounds. The ones that everyone has been discussing since I mentioned them initially. Do you read other posts or just a few words?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:The circus tent ring and the 15 rounds. The ones that everyone has been discussing since I mentioned them initially. Do you read other posts or just a few words?

So two things...

1. Having the fight at the same distance as Hagler's last two fights - what a crime!

2. Having a large ring - Yes, this suited Leonard more, but it was within the rules set out by the Vegas commision.

Once again. Hagler agreed to these stipulations. So what's your problem?

How many excuses do Hagler fans need.
1. The ring was too big.
2. 12 round fight.

How's about Leonard's disadvantages.
1. He had never fought at middleweight.
2. One fight in FIVE years.
3. Fighting a dominant champion.
4. Eye trouble.
5. A stone over his natural weight.
6. Leonard looked awfull in his previous fight.

keithmoonhangover wrote:How many excuses do Hagler fans need.
1. The ring was too big.
2. 12 round fight.

How's about Leonard's disadvantages.
1. He had never fought at middleweight.
2. One fight in FIVE years.
3. Fighting a dominant champion.
4. Eye trouble.
5. A stone over his natural weight.
6. Leonard looked awfull in his previous fight.

Those aren't real disadvantages, only perceived ones, Hagler's played out, Leonard's didn't, and this is from a Leonard fan.

Didn't he also stipulate that thumbless gloves (with more padding than usual) were used (in their infancy)?

Hagler wanted this fight, no-one generated more money for him. You only had to see his face when SRL announced his retirement after heavily hinting at saying the fight would be on. The purse was huge - $12 for Hagler, $11 for SRL - A record at the time.

I think SRL spooked Hagler, he changes stance several times in the fight - That's either extreme arrogance or lack of ideas. He also struggled to cut off the ring for the majority of the fight. What's also worth noting is that he's very dismissive of SRL's power yet he covers up whenever SRL throws and also ends the fight with a mouse under one eye at least?

It's true that SRL hadn't fought for a number of years but he had several closed doors bouts without headgear and no punches pulled - One of them being up and coming Quincy Taylor, who apparently knocked him out or at least nearly stopped him and made SRL re-evaluate his tactics for this fight.

The 15 to 12 round thing was also legit - It was still possible to set it for 15 rounds, but they got the Hagler camp to agree to 12 rounds for a % of the CCTV profits. This was the main negotiating point for the fight, SRL was set to walk away from it should it be over 15. Yes, he had done 12 before but that was by mutal agreement, it was still possible to set the fight for 15 rounds. The distance definitely favoured SRL as he tired towards the end of the 12, clinching numerous times (warnings but no point deductions?).

SRL also stacked the cards in his favour in several fights after this:

Famously making LaLonde weigh in at 168 and having both the 168 and 175 titles on the line in the same fight - LaLonde said only last week that the weight played a factor, he was bone dry and faded over the fight despite hurting SRL early. He had a penalty clause in place, $1m for each lb over 168 he weighed in. His trainer over-trained him to make sure he did not lose out and weighed in at 167.

Then he made both Duran and Hearns both weigh in at well under 168 for their rematches, despite the fights being for the 168lb titles.

no one thought hagler took a personal health risk doing this.
my guess is for leonard the perception was slightly different.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:How many excuses do Hagler fans need.
1. The ring was too big.
2. 12 round fight.

How's about Leonard's disadvantages.
1. He had never fought at middleweight.
2. One fight in FIVE years.
3. Fighting a dominant champion.
4. Eye trouble.
5. A stone over his natural weight.
6. Leonard looked awfull in his previous fight.

Those aren't real disadvantages, only perceived ones, Hagler's played out, Leonard's didn't, and this is from a Leonard fan.

ARE YOU STONED?

Of course they were disadvantages. Ring rust is a massive problem, eye damage is real, fighting above his natural weight etc etc

orbtastic wrote:Didn't he also stipulate that thumbless gloves (with more padding than usual) were used (in their infancy)?

Hagler wanted this fight, no-one generated more money for him. You only had to see his face when SRL announced his retirement after heavily hinting at saying the fight would be on. The purse was huge - $12 for Hagler, $11 for SRL - A record at the time.

I think SRL spooked Hagler, he changes stance several times in the fight - That's either extreme arrogance or lack of ideas. He also struggled to cut off the ring for the majority of the fight. What's also worth noting is that he's very dismissive of SRL's power yet he covers up whenever SRL throws and also ends the fight with a mouse under one eye at least?

It's true that SRL hadn't fought for a number of years but he had several closed doors bouts without headgear and no punches pulled - One of them being up and coming Quincy Taylor, who apparently knocked him out or at least nearly stopped him and made SRL re-evaluate his tactics for this fight.

The 15 to 12 round thing was also legit - It was still possible to set it for 15 rounds, but they got the Hagler camp to agree to 12 rounds for a % of the CCTV profits. This was the main negotiating point for the fight, SRL was set to walk away from it should it be over 15. Yes, he had done 12 before but that was by mutal agreement, it was still possible to set the fight for 15 rounds. The distance definitely favoured SRL as he tired towards the end of the 12, clinching numerous times (warnings but no point deductions?).

SRL also stacked the cards in his favour in several fights after this:

Famously making LaLonde weigh in at 168 and having both the 168 and 175 titles on the line in the same fight - LaLonde said only last week that the weight played a factor, he was bone dry and faded over the fight despite hurting SRL early. He had a penalty clause in place, $1m for each lb over 168 he weighed in. His trainer over-trained him to make sure he did not lose out and weighed in at 167.

Then he made both Duran and Hearns both weigh in at well under 168 for their rematches, despite the fights being for the 168lb titles.

Lalonde could have said no to the fight or negotiated harder. So too could Hagler, Hearns and Duran.

Leonard was a fantastic negotiator. Plus in all cases, he was the bigger draw.

Bigger draw but took the smaller purse, tells you all you need to know about this fight.

Also worth noting is that Hagler had the choice on judges, he turned down one judge (Ken Morita I think) in favour of Jose Juan Guerra, who famously scored it a lot wider to SRL than anyone else.

orbtastic wrote:Bigger draw but took the smaller purse, tells you all you need to know about this fight.

Also worth noting is that Hagler had the choice on judges, he turned down one judge (Ken Morita I think) in favour of Jose Juan Guerra, who famously scored it a lot wider to SRL than anyone else.

Leonard did agree the smaller purse ($11m if memory serves) - although he made millions on the back of the win.

A lot of the Leonard haters refuse to acknowledge that Marvin and Ray came to an agreement.