BoxRec

Is it time that they stop electing "Old-Timers" to the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
These fighters careers had to end before World War II ended.

Here are the best fighters that I can come up with who have not been elected yet:

Lightheavyweights- Jake Root, George Gardnier, Battling Siki, Mike McTigue

Middleweights-Mike O'Dowd, Johnny Wilson

Welterweights-Rube Ferns, Honey Mellody,Matty Mathews, Dave "Twin" Sullivan

Lightweights- Jack Blackburn (already in as a Non-Participant), and Dave Holly

Featherweights- Solly Smith and Dave Sullivan

Bantamweight- Pedlar Palmer and Eddie "Cannonball" Martin

Flyweight - Jackie Brown

There are already over 100 fighters elected from the 1880s to World War II. Is that enough?
Or should some of these guys (or someone else) get elected?

If so who?

Newsboy Brown
Petey Sarron
Lockport Jimmy Duffy
Charley White

probably more

Newsboy Brown should be in. I think that if he was widley recognized as being a champion he would have been elected a long time ago.. (California recognized him as the world champion. ) He beat several guys who are in the Hall of Fame-Panama Al Brown, Frankie Genaro, Baby Arzimnendi etc.

Petey Sarron has a case. He did beat Benny Bass and Freddie Miller.

I don't think Jimmy Duffy and Charley White did quite enough.

btw-there are 109 Old-Timers in as well as 109 "Modern fighters" Since the fighters before the 1880s fighters are considered "Pioneers" there is about 60 years or so when the Old-Timers fought. (1880s to early 1940s) That is about the same amount of time from the end of WWII to 2010 when the modern fighters were active.
So I guess that was one reason that I was wondering if enough Old-Timers have been elected. In addition, some of the Old-Timers elected recently really were borderline cases at best.

The sheer number of guys who fought in the old days (1880s to early 1940s) dwarfs those who have fought in modern times.

Some more

Memphis Pal Moore
Frankie Burns
Abe Goldstein
Jimmy Leto

Tommy Paul. Beat Labarba, Miller, Genaro, Bushy Graham. Draws with Chocolate, Al Brown, Sarron

Ambling Alp wrote:Is it time that they stop electing "Old-Timers" to the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
These fighters careers had to end before World War II ended.

Here are the best fighters that I can come up with who have not been elected yet:

Lightheavyweights- Jake Root, George Gardnier, Battling Siki, Mike McTigue

Middleweights-Mike O'Dowd, Johnny Wilson

Welterweights-Rube Ferns, Honey Mellody,Matty Mathews, Dave "Twin" Sullivan

Lightweights- Jack Blackburn (already in as a Non-Participant), and Dave Holly

Featherweights- Solly Smith and Dave Sullivan

Bantamweight- Pedlar Palmer and Eddie "Cannonball" Martin

Flyweight - Jackie Brown

There are already over 100 fighters elected from the 1880s to World War II. Is that enough?
Or should some of these guys (or someone else) get elected?

If so who?

Actually surprised that some of these guys aren't in.

Blackburn, Holly, O'Dowd, Sullivan, Root, Siki, McTigue...

Ezz-Those were the best of those that I had thought of; along with Gardnier. I just don't know if they are should be considered shoe-ins.

I am convinced that some more guys should be in. Seamus mentioned Newsboy Brown, Memphis Pal Moore, and wbsuf mentioned Tommy Paul. They in particular all have really good cases.

I guess I was looking at who has been elected recently. Guys like Gorilla Jones, George Godfrey, Rocky Kansas. I didn't think they were worthy. I was thinking that if that is the best that maybe it's time to stop electing fighters from this era.
However, once you start listing all those who have not made it yet; it's clear that there are still some guys that should make it. I just hope they put in guys that deserve to make it. They might put yet more heavyweights in.

Ditto with what Ric said. More to choose from when looking at the late 1890s up to the 40s. The sad thing is the criteria will eventually get even more laughable when they run out of fighters past the 70s and 80s to choose from.

How many active fighters not in their 40s could you say are really HOF calibre (and I mean true HOF, not Barry McGuigan standards here) You have Pac, Floyd, Mosley, Marquez brothers, Morales (even though in 'fight years' he's like 50),Wonkjonkam . . maybe Williams, W. Klitschko, Donaire and Martinez will be there at the end of their careers . . all in all not very much.

Siki, McTigue, and Johnny Wilson have absolutely no place in the HOF. McTigue was shit and lived off the ND era. Wilson was the poster boy for everything that was and is wrong with boxing. And Siki sucked as well. Give me one good reason why any of these guys should be in. If you have really done your homework on them you would see that they are not worthy.

How about these:
Lew Feldman
Tommy Yarosz

dempseyfire wrote:Ditto with what Ric said. More to choose from when looking at the late 1890s up to the 40s. The sad thing is the criteria will eventually get even more laughable when they run out of fighters past the 70s and 80s to choose from.

How many active fighters not in their 40s could you say are really HOF calibre (and I mean true HOF, not Barry McGuigan standards here) You have Pac, Floyd, Mosley, Marquez brothers, Morales (even though in 'fight years' he's like 50),Wonkjonkam . . maybe Williams, W. Klitschko, Donaire and Martinez will be there at the end of their careers . . all in all not very much.

I here what you are saying. However, it's too early to know for almost everyone in their 20's.
There are several guys from the 1990s and early 2000s that should be shoe-ins. De la Hoya, Barrera, and Calzaghe will probably make it on the first ballot. Trinidad and Wright will make it as well. There are several other guys who are borderline cases.

klompton wrote:Siki, McTigue, and Johnny Wilson have absolutely no place in the HOF. McTigue was shit and lived off the ND era. Wilson was the poster boy for everything that was and is wrong with boxing. And Siki sucked as well. Give me one good reason why any of these guys should be in. If you have really done your homework on them you would see that they are not worthy.

I can't believe you would say that about McTigue. The guy fought tremendous comeptition.
He had wins over Siki, Berlanbach, a Newspaper win over Tommy Loughran.
Well past his prime he got a draw with Larry Gains even though he was outweighed.
He also beat Risko and had a draw with Stribling.
Even though Fowers was really a middleweight, a decision over him at that stage in McTigue' career was a respectable win.

Wilson and Siki are more of a stretch. Siki did beat Capentier and almost beat McTigue. He beat O'Dowd twice and gave Greb a tough fight. Maybe not Hall of Fame worthy, but they certainly didn't suck.

Ambling Alp wrote:

klompton wrote:Siki, McTigue, and Johnny Wilson have absolutely no place in the HOF. McTigue was shit and lived off the ND era. Wilson was the poster boy for everything that was and is wrong with boxing. And Siki sucked as well. Give me one good reason why any of these guys should be in. If you have really done your homework on them you would see that they are not worthy.

I can't believe you would say that about McTigue. The guy fought tremendous comeptition.
He had wins over Siki, Berlanbach, a Newspaper win over Tommy Loughran.
Well past his prime he got a draw with Larry Gains even though he was outweighed.
He also beat Risko and had a draw with Stribling.
Even though Fowers was really a middleweight, a decision over him at that stage in McTigue' career was a respectable win.

Wilson and Siki are more of a stretch. Siki did beat Capentier and almost beat McTigue. He beat O'Dowd twice and gave Greb a tough fight. Maybe not Hall of Fame worthy, but they certainly didn't suck.

McTigues lone claim to fame, which was his victory over Siki, was an outright robbery. He would have been lucky to win 5 of the 20 rounds. He spent the entire fight doing what he did in most of his fights which was to run and survive. His victory over Loughran was highly disputed and his victories over Flowers and Stribling are, along with Greb-Tunney 2, and Wilson-Downey 1, among the worst and most criminal decisions of that era. I have the ringside accounts of his fight against Stribling and he didnt win a single round. His handpicked referee called it a draw and then literally carried McTigues bags to the train station and left with him...

Wilson was a decent fighter but certainly not great and did nothing to distinguish a hall of fame career. In fact if there were a hall of fame Wilson would be a first round pick. He spent his entire career managed by the mob and it was a rumored mob influence that supposedly swayed the decision his way in the first ODowd fight. He defended against ODowd and supposedly threw so many uncalled lowblows that ODowd was forced into surgery to repair a hernia suffered from the illegal punches. Then Wilson defended against Bryan Downey in Cleveland and was knocked out. KNOCKED OUT. Wilson's handpicked referee who he brought to the fight with him gave Wilson a slow count, counted one of the same numbers three times (im not making this up) and finally reached ten counting Wilson out before awarding the fight to Wilson anyway. Wilson then fought Downey a rematch in the ND state of NJ (of course he didnt want to risk losing his title again) and was bested there as well. He put up such a poor performance that his money was held up until he sign to defend against his most worthy challenger: Greb. Wilson signed, collected his check, and then tore up the contract and spent the next year and a half avoiding Greb which garnered him a ban from boxing. When he finally signed to fight Greb it was because Greb had been fighting at 175 so long he didnt think Greb could make the weight and that his title was secure. When Greb made weight "representatives" of Johnny's mob management paid him a visit in the dressing room and asked him to throw the fight. Greb refused and his sparring partner and stablemate Cuddy DeMarco always blamed this refusal on his later inability to get a title shot. If that isnt grounds enough right there for not getting into the hall I dont know what is. If Pete Rose cant get into the hall for gambling on his own friggin team Johnny Wilson shouldnt.

Siki was garbage. He only got a shot at the LHW title because he was considered infinitley beatable AND because he took a bribe to lay down. He double crossed Carpentier in the match and beat him. And frankly Ive been very vocal in my belief that Carpentier was not a great fighter either. However one things seperates Carpentier from these three mediocrities which gives him a rightful spot in the HOF and thats his historical impact. He was almost single handedly responsible for popularity boxing had in Europe during the first quarter of the 20th century. These other three had nothing to take onto their mediocre careers to push them over the edge to say they would deserve a spot in the hall. If these guys get in the hall is pretty pointless.

Wow. Well I find it hard to believe that McTigue got a decison that he didn't deserve against Siki and Flowers and didn't deserve the draw against Stribling and didn't deserve the newspaper decision against Loughran.


Even beside this, he had wins over Berlanbach and Risko, and managed to get a draw vs Gains even though he was past his prime and outweighed.

Obviously Siki could not have been "garbage." Even if the cute story of him double-crossing Carpetnier and not taking a dive is true, he still had to win the fight. And according to you Siki should have the decison against McTigue.

I guess I'm not that much of a conspiracy theory buff. I usually go with the official verdict unless I see the fight and think otherwise. I will read newspaper accounts but don't assume that that they are accurrate.

You can find it hard to believe all you want but its a dirty business and thats the way it was. I also find the logic that McTigue or Siki were great depending on whether one or the other one their fights is somewhat circular. I also find the logic that Siki is great because he may have won a fixed fight on a double cross circular as well. The bottom line is these guys are the by-product of a very murky era where crime and politics converged to allow several men to be called champions and retain those title when they should have never even gotten a shot at them much less retained them past their first defense.

Furthermore, Im not spouting conspiracy theories on these fights. I have the most complete version in existence of Siki-McTigue which is the majority of the fight and McTigue wasnt even competetive in any but possibly one round. That isnt a theory thats a fact. You can also go back and read the accounts of people who were there and see even biased irishmen felt it was a robbery. Its sad that you find it hard to believe that an irishman would get a gift decision over a disgraced black man in ireland on st pattys day during the uprising. If ever there was a situation for a gift to be handed to the sentimental fav it was that day. Its not a conspiracy that McTigue was given a gift over Strib. It was well documented. The local papers gave the fight TREMENDOUS coverage in the weeks leading up to it and the aftermath and the whole things basically boils down to a bunch of big city characters trying to take advantage of what they thought were a bunch of hicks. Against Flowers McTigue got another horrible decision which resulted in Flowers, not McTigue getting the money fight with Greb. The two judges in the fight who voted for McTigue were inexperienced New York businessmen who acted as celebrity judges as part of a promotional/charity stunt. They had no business judging a fight of that magnitudlll
You can argue that Siki wasnt garbage based on two fights a fixed fight against Carp (who wasnt that good) and a bad loss against McTigue (who even his own country men admitted wasnt that good) but the whole of his record speaks volumes and in it Siki suffered a multitude of embarrassing defeats and beatings to extremely spotty competition. In addition to doing nothing prior to his fight with Carp to gain a title shot and nothing afterwards to distinguish himself as a world class fighter. By your reckoning Siki legitimately lost to McTigue which means he has one suspect marquee win on his resume and THAT is supposed to garner him HOF status??? Do tell...


If you are going to ignore the context within which these fights occured and historical record. Then you basically reduce boxing to a numbers game, something it isnt and never has been. Thats pretty sad if thats what you are basing HOF status on and more to the point EVEN if thats what you are basing HOF staus on these men dont qualify. I mean you are trumpeting McTigue's DRAW with Larry Gains (who wasnt exactly a legend either, never mind that Martin Burke beat Gains a few months earlier and he himself was about the same dimensions as Mctigue) as part of his HOF status. Pretty tenuous if you ask me. Should Burke be in the Hall? How about Bill Hartwell who knocked Gains out a few months after the McTuigue fight???

Thats sort o what I was thing, Darling.

Klompton, well, I will try to explain myself as best as I can, though seems like we aren't getting anywhere here.

I'm not saying Siki was alegend or anything like that. Not saying he should be in the HOF. Just saying he was someone to cosnider.
Not going to get into all of the fights that you claim Mctigue didn't deserve. Of course it's a dirty game. However, I just don't buy that he got so many gifts. There are also a lot stoires that are just that, stories.
someone else once made a statement a while back that I tohuogt was interesting . It went something likke this" There have been many fights that we don't know about that were probably fixed. (either by the referees, judges, or the fighters themselves.) However, most of the fights that are supected of being fixes, probably were not." I pretty much agree with that.
Of course there has been millions of boxing matches over the years. Certainly they were not all on the level. However, I believe that the vast majority of them were on the level. It takes a lot to convince me that a fight was not. A lot more than some newspaper account.

Obviously that is not how you seem to see things. I think we can leave it at that.

No it's not a "fact" that Mctigue was not competitive with Siki. That is only an opinion.

As for Mctigues win over Larry Gains: Of course by itsdelf that is not enough to make him worthy of the Hall of Fame. However, Gains was a good fighter. Not a great, but still a good fighter. I think thats a good win for a light heavyweight who was past his prime. Its worth mentioning along with some of McTigues other good results.

Ambling Alp wrote:Thats sort o what I was thing, Darling.

Klompton, well, I will try to explain myself as best as I can, though seems like we aren't getting anywhere here.

I'm not saying Siki was alegend or anything like that. Not saying he should be in the HOF. Just saying he was someone to cosnider.
Not going to get into all of the fights that you claim Mctigue didn't deserve. Of course it's a dirty game. However, I just don't buy that he got so many gifts. There are also a lot stoires that are just that, stories.
someone else once made a statement a while back that I tohuogt was interesting . It went something likke this" There have been many fights that we don't know about that were probably fixed. (either by the referees, judges, or the fighters themselves.) However, most of the fights that are supected of being fixes, probably were not." I pretty much agree with that.
Of course there has been millions of boxing matches over the years. Certainly they were not all on the level. However, I believe that the vast majority of them were on the level. It takes a lot to convince me that a fight was not. A lot more than some newspaper account.

Obviously that is not how you seem to see things. I think we can leave it at that.

No it's not a "fact" that Mctigue was not competitive with Siki. That is only an opinion.

As for Mctigues win over Larry Gains: Of course by itsdelf that is not enough to make him worthy of the Hall of Fame. However, Gains was a good fighter. Not a great, but still a good fighter. I think thats a good win for a light heavyweight who was past his prime. Its worth mentioning along with some of McTigues other good results.

Someday John Ruiz will be in the HOF by this logic.