BoxRec

Floyd vs Archie Moore.......were they actually the best HWs around at the time? Any suggestions for other match-ups? And any views on Hart vs Root, Schmeling vs Sharkey, and what about post Lennox?

both Klits have to fight each other ...simple as that

Ain't gonna happen.

zebgonzo wrote:Floyd vs Archie Moore.......were they actually the best HWs around at the time? Any suggestions for other match-ups? And any views on Hart vs Root, Schmeling vs Sharkey, and what about post Lennox?

Each case was a little different.

Patterson and Moore were actually in a 3-man tournament. Moore got a bye; Patterson had to beat Hurricane Jackson first. I suppose Machen should have been the mix as well. Folley had recently been upset, Liston and Johannson were not ready yet.

After Jeffries retired, there were was a lot of guys that were roughly even. Root and Hart were about as worthy as anyone else.

As for Schmeling and Sharkey, by the time they had fought it was almost 2 years since Tunney's last fight. Schmeling wasn't not even a contender during Tunney's title reign. However, in those two years both he and sharkey more or less beat the other top guys. They were the two best heavyweights in the world when they fought.

What about post Lennox?

Post-Lewis, obviously, the Klitschkos were the best --- & they would never fight. Lucky for Vitali.

Ambling Alp wrote:After Jeffries retired, there were was a lot of guys that were roughly even. Root and Hart were about as worthy as anyone else.

Didn't Jeffries himself nominate that match? At the time, I believe a retiring champ had the prerogative to choose his successors.

Jeffries did referee that fight. Supposedly he had declared that the winner of the fight would be the new champion, though that has been disputed whether or not he actually said something to that affect.
(A retiring champion could say who he wanted his successor to be, though that didn't automatically mean that is what would happen.)

However, just by refereeing a fight that was advertised as for the vacant title did give it some credibility as a title fight.
There was no "governing bodies" as we know them today, nor was Ring Magazine even around yet. So at least the appearance of Jeffries wishes meant something to some people. Still some people did not consider it as a title fight and thus didn't consider Hart as the champion; interestingly, most fans (though certainly not all) did consider Burns as champion after he beat Hart.

I think that Wladimir beating Ruslan Chagaev was enough to win him the Heavyweight title.

oliverfennell wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:After Jeffries retired, there were was a lot of guys that were roughly even. Root and Hart were about as worthy as anyone else.

Didn't Jeffries himself nominate that match? At the time, I believe a retiring champ had the prerogative to choose his successors.

Jeffries did referee the fight, but he said at the time that he never declared anyone the champion. He said if a retiring champion had the perogative to pick the new champion, he would pick somebody from his own family. But he didn't have that prerogative, and it would be up to the fans to decide who was champion.

When Jeffries retired, Bob Fitzsimmons also declared himself champion reasoning that (a) he was still active, (b) the only person to beat him after 1899 was Jeffries and (c) he was the champion immediately before Jeffries, so the title should revert to him. When O'Brien beat Fitz in December 1905, he laid claim to the title by virtue of Fitz's claim. That led to Burns-O'Brien matches in 1906 and 1907. Burns claim to the title didn;t really solidify until after he defeated O'Brien and Bill Squires - who was thought to be the best man out of Australia. Many people still considered Jeffries the champion - retired or not.

keithmoonhangover wrote:I think that Wladimir beating Ruslan Chagaev was enough to win him the Heavyweight title.

Agreed. That means, though, that I consider his brother to never have been the division champ.

Personally I always viewed Wlad as the champ after he beat Ibragimov. I don't think he would beat Vitali in a fight, but since Vitali retired, it was clear for a while that Wlad was THE guy to beat in the HW division. Since Vitali's return there is uncertainly as to who is better, but IMO Wlad is the closest thing we have to a lineal champ.

jezzamundo wrote:Personally I always viewed Wlad as the champ after he beat Ibragimov. I don't think he would beat Vitali in a fight, but since Vitali retired, it was clear for a while that Wlad was THE guy to beat in the HW division. Since Vitali's return there is uncertainly as to who is better, but IMO Wlad is the closest thing we have to a lineal champ.

I agree. Wlad was the champ for me after he beat Ibragimov too, but he didn't get the title in the minds of most because Chagaev was still being ridiculously overrated despite essentially being a slow version of Ibragimov with less power.

I actually considered Vitali the champ when he retired though, so his coming back has only served to frustrate me as far as the division goes, because he's always been the better fighter, and considering even the older, slower, injury-prone version of him is still fighting just as well as Wladimir in his prime speaks volumes.

Wladdy would've been annihilated by Lewis.

Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

No, but I believe he's a more formidable opponent.

The thing is they kinda both have legitimate claims to the Heavyweight title as Vitali retired as the Heavyweight Champ back in 04' and has never been beaten in the ring since returning. Wlad won the legitimate Championship when he beat Ruslan Chagaev, and hasn't lost either. Since they're not going to fight each other, to clear up the mess there has to be a fighter out there who is capable of beating them both. I don't see it happening.

Ezzard wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

No, but I believe he's a more formidable opponent.

I disagree, but fair enough.

gilgamesh wrote:The thing is they kinda both have legitimate claims to the Heavyweight title as Vitali retired as the Heavyweight Champ back in 04' and has never been beaten in the ring since returning. Wlad won the legitimate Championship when he beat Ruslan Chagaev, and hasn't lost either. Since they're not going to fight each other, to clear up the mess there has to be a fighter out there who is capable of beating them both. I don't see it happening.

It is debatable whether big bro should have recognition in 2004. I think his retirement completely voids any claim he may have had, nonetheless.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

Vitali is more talented than Wlad. Just because Wlad does everything textbook doesn't mean he's automatically better. Vitali dodges punches better than Wlad is and Wlad is supposed to be the master boxer?

People get too caught up in how they appear in the ring without taking into account who's actually effective. Forrest did things textbook too but it didn't stop Mayorga from kicking his ass.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

Vitali is more talented than Wlad. Just because Wlad does everything textbook doesn't mean he's automatically better. Vitali dodges punches better than Wlad is and Wlad is supposed to be the master boxer?

People get too caught up in how they appear in the ring without taking into account who's actually effective. Forrest did things textbook too but it didn't stop Mayorga from kicking his ass.

People get too caught up on Dr. Roboto's (big brother) dependable chin against Wlad's weak one.

Vitali has always lacked any fluidity to his upper-body, & still freakin' arm punches! It's interesting to me that very few seemed to consider Vitali the more talented brother until junior started getting blown out.

sg1985 wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali was never as talented as Wlad.

Vitali is more talented than Wlad. Just because Wlad does everything textbook doesn't mean he's automatically better. Vitali dodges punches better than Wlad is and Wlad is supposed to be the master boxer?

People get too caught up in how they appear in the ring without taking into account who's actually effective. Forrest did things textbook too but it didn't stop Mayorga from kicking his ass.

I have to agree with G,I, Wlad has the better variety of punches and clearly has the better jab. Vitali is a good boxer don't get me wrong, but he doesn't do anything better than Wlad, and he does a lot less.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

sg1985 wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote: Vitali is more talented than Wlad. Just because Wlad does everything textbook doesn't mean he's automatically better. Vitali dodges punches better than Wlad is and Wlad is supposed to be the master boxer?

People get too caught up in how they appear in the ring without taking into account who's actually effective. Forrest did things textbook too but it didn't stop Mayorga from kicking his ass.

I have to agree with G,I, Wlad has the better variety of punches and clearly has the better jab. Vitali is a good boxer don't get me wrong, but he doesn't do anything better than Wlad, and he does a lot less.

It's the eye test. People think "Wow, Wlad is athletic and a great boxer" but if boxing is hit and don't get hit Vitali is clearly superior. When he does get hit he doesn't shatter so he's superior there too, and despite this silly resputation they have for some crazy disparity in punching power, it's funny how they seem to do about the same amount of damage when in the ring against similar or the same opponents (I'm looking squarely at one particular Nigerian)

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

sg1985 wrote: I have to agree with G,I, Wlad has the better variety of punches and clearly has the better jab. Vitali is a good boxer don't get me wrong, but he doesn't do anything better than Wlad, and he does a lot less.

It's the eye test. People think "Wow, Wlad is athletic and a great boxer" but if boxing is hit and don't get hit Vitali is clearly superior. When he does get hit he doesn't shatter so he's superior there too, and despite this silly resputation they have for some crazy disparity in punching power, it's funny how they seem to do about the same amount of damage when in the ring against similar or the same opponents (I'm looking squarely at one particular Nigerian)

In fairness to junior, he had Peter closer to being out than did big bro --- but otherwise, big bro did better.

I don't see either brother as great, mind --- but big bro is way, way over-rated.