BoxRec

After the sustained beating Shannan Briggs received at the hands of Klitschko and the critisism aimed at Ian John Lewis for not stopping the fight it made me wonder was this worse than the frightening Knockout of Enzo Macaranelli, allowed to happen by referee Erkki Meronen. Boxing News were calling for Meronen to be banned from refereeing for life. Is there any comparison, both i think were guilty of incompitent refereeing and both in my opinion could have had something more serious on their hands.
Interested to see what you think.

While the Briggs beating would very likely have been more damaging to the fighter, the Enzo KO was a far more shocking error by the ref, as Enzo was clearly out of it, and was bizzarely sent back in to have his head handed to him.

That was real, jaw dropping incompetence.

Whereas Ian John Lewis just seemed to have a failure of common sense, and hid behind the almost plausable excuse that Briggs never looked in "real trouble"....and he'll be allowed to get away with it for that reason, and hopefully learn a lesson from it too. He was involved in some brutal fights himself as a pro, and that might cloud his judgement sometimes, I guess.

I think the Enzo KO was far worse as the man was out on his feet but still think Ian john had a bad night and should have stopped the fight, maybe the occasion got to him.

I think from watching fights for about 30 years it seams to be that more long lasting damage is caused after a long sustained beating rather than a single punch out of nowhere in an even contest,the enzo stoppage was shocking though.

For me, the Enzo KO because he was badly hurt anyway but the referee allowed him to be knocked out, which was disgraceful, it just needn't have happened.

Briggs suffered a beating and, we later discovered, considerable physical damage, but at no point in that fight did I think he was badly hurt — he was just losing widely. Personally I don't blame IJL at all under the circumstances. Briggs was taking some hammer but he wasn't going anywhere, he wasn't running from Vitali, and he clearly believed he was in with a chance of landing the big punch that could turn things his way. IJL would have seen that.

If anyone is to blame it is Briggs's corner. Presumably they will have been aware of at least some of the damage Shannon was suffering because it's likely he would have mentioned it between rounds. IJL would not have been privvy to this information.

Both beatings were brutal and totally preventable. The refs there to stop these things happening if anything bad were to happen to briggs as a result of that beating it woulda given boxing a bad name yet again.

The enzo ko was equally as bad and again the ref had the chance to prevent it but his incompetence resulted in a horrific knockout.

MightyWarrior wrote:While the Briggs beating would very likely have been more damaging to the fighter, the Enzo KO was a far more shocking error by the ref, as Enzo was clearly out of it, and was bizzarely sent back in to have his head handed to him.

That was real, jaw dropping incompetence.

Whereas Ian John Lewis just seemed to have a failure of common sense, and hid behind the almost plausable excuse that Briggs never looked in "real trouble"....and he'll be allowed to get away with it for that reason, and hopefully learn a lesson from it too. He was involved in some brutal fights himself as a pro, and that might cloud his judgement sometimes, I guess.

I agree fullly with this

Both bad, Briggs was worse. At least Enzo was in the fight, if not winning it at the time he was dropped.

The Macca KO was a momentary mistake, the Briggs fight was a mistake from about the 8th round onwards. It's easy to make mistakes and bad calls in the heat of the moment. The ref and the Briggs corner had half a fight to see the writing on the wall.

Edit: That said, the bravery shown by Briggs corner because of his last minute theatrics against Liakhovich make it easier to understand. Hindsight works both ways I guess.

Who are we to question IJL? He has been on both sides, as a pro, and now as a top ref, and knows more than most of us that criticize him The way it looks on TV is not always the way it may look from 2 feet away. Shannon can punch, and had a punchers chance at an upset. As you see in his recent video, he is fine but for a torn muscle.


Ezno on the other hand. That ref failed the basic checks, so that was unprofessional and he needs dealing with. If he had done the checks, was satisfied, and sent Enzo back in then what more can you do but let him fight? I was there that night and at that moment the ref was looking the other way.

carlbcfc wrote:Who are we to question IJL? He has been on both sides, as a pro, and now as a top ref, and knows more than most of us that criticize him The way it looks on TV is not always the way it may look from 2 feet away. Shannon can punch, and had a punchers chance at an upset. As you see in his recent video, he is fine but for a torn muscle.


Ezno on the other hand. That ref failed the basic checks, so that was unprofessional and he needs dealing with. If he had done the checks, was satisfied, and sent Enzo back in then what more can you do but let him fight? I was there that night and at that moment the ref was looking the other way.

thats like saying who are we to question Erkki Meronen, he has been on both sides. as a amateur a pro and a top ref. Maybe the way Enzo's knockout looked on tv might have looked different 2 feet away....
They were both lucky someone wasnt seriously hurt

jonny wrote:

carlbcfc wrote:Who are we to question IJL? He has been on both sides, as a pro, and now as a top ref, and knows more than most of us that criticize him The way it looks on TV is not always the way it may look from 2 feet away. Shannon can punch, and had a punchers chance at an upset. As you see in his recent video, he is fine but for a torn muscle.


Ezno on the other hand. That ref failed the basic checks, so that was unprofessional and he needs dealing with. If he had done the checks, was satisfied, and sent Enzo back in then what more can you do but let him fight? I was there that night and at that moment the ref was looking the other way.

thats like saying who are we to question Erkki Meronen, he has been on both sides. as a amateur a pro and a top ref. Maybe the way Enzo's knockout looked on tv might have looked different 2 feet away....
They were both lucky someone wasnt seriously hurt

That ref did not even look into Enzo's eyes to see he was already asleep.

carlbcfc wrote:

jonny wrote:

carlbcfc wrote:Who are we to question IJL? He has been on both sides, as a pro, and now as a top ref, and knows more than most of us that criticize him The way it looks on TV is not always the way it may look from 2 feet away. Shannon can punch, and had a punchers chance at an upset. As you see in his recent video, he is fine but for a torn muscle.


Ezno on the other hand. That ref failed the basic checks, so that was unprofessional and he needs dealing with. If he had done the checks, was satisfied, and sent Enzo back in then what more can you do but let him fight? I was there that night and at that moment the ref was looking the other way.

thats like saying who are we to question Erkki Meronen, he has been on both sides. as a amateur a pro and a top ref. Maybe the way Enzo's knockout looked on tv might have looked different 2 feet away....
They were both lucky someone wasnt seriously hurt

That ref did not even look into Enzo's eyes to see he was already asleep.

I dont disagree with you, I just dont think because Ian John Lewis has fought that it makes him right thats why I made the point that Erkki was a fighter and look what balls up he made.

Definately the Briggs one for me...... That fight could have been stopped any time from the end of the SIXTH round. Infact, Briggs and pretty much everyone thought IJL was coming in to stop it at the end of the Briggs when he was gone (how can people not say he never in serious trouble) - everyone must have gone for a piss for the last 20 seconds of the 6th round.

I love my boxing and bought the PPV but to be honest - I flicked over to Match of the day after the 6th cause I thought Briggs wouldn't have survived the 7th. How in gods name did he survive till the end remains a mistery... and the fact that he did amazes me and is testiment to Briggs' recovery rate. I've seen all the fight since and it aint pretty.

Maccarinelli was a momentary lapse and I think its been heightend somewhat cause he is a popular fighter, universally liked. Compare his conditioning to Khan vs Prescott and many people applauded the British ref (which might be another factor) for letting it be decisive. Also McCall vs Lewis 1, one which has received criticisms for it being stopped to early. Lewis was in more trouble, for a longer period than Maccarinelli was - it was a great call, the ref was practically holding Lewis up as he complained - glassed eyed looked at Pepe Correra. Lewis' complaints for me were as rediculous as Audley's complaints that the ref should have counted to 10 vs Sprott.

The next shot Lebedev hit Enzo with was a good one also. That did damage in its self, I agree it shouldn't have been allowed but I think we've seen Enzo in worst condition and complain and also in bad condition (not worst) and get up to win.

Briggs was in dire trouble at the end of the 6th. It was getting to be a one sided beating then, we know Briggs has amazing recovery powers (ask Lennox). If IJL has said he needed ONE excuse to stop the fight - that was the opportunity.

As Harry Hill would say "Who was worse, was it Erkki or was it Ian, theres only one way to find out.....FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Maybe there was a bit of pressure on IJL to wait for a proper ko as there's been a lot of yanks going over to Germany and going down at the first opportunity and the fans over there only get a few fights on the card

Maccaroni by far.

That was equivalent to going through a windscreen.

carlbcfc wrote:Who are we to question IJL? He has been on both sides, as a pro, and now as a top ref, and knows more than most of us that criticize him The way it looks on TV is not always the way it may look from 2 feet away. Shannon can punch, and had a punchers chance at an upset. As you see in his recent video, he is fine but for a torn muscle.


Ezno on the other hand. That ref failed the basic checks, so that was unprofessional and he needs dealing with. If he had done the checks, was satisfied, and sent Enzo back in then what more can you do but let him fight? I was there that night and at that moment the ref was looking the other way.

Briggs did not have a realistic shot of scoring a KO, especially considering he was fighting a man with an iron chin (which iron jawed fighters has Briggs knocked out at the highest level?). That excuse does not cut it. He was getting pummeled and was never in the fight at any point. Also, I would say that the referees (many of whom were fighters) who regularly turn in horrendous scorecards know more about boxing than most of us. I guess we shouldn't criticize them either?

Having a punchers' chance don't mean shit if you're not bloody punching and getting your head beaten on for round after round. His corner, the ref, the ringside officials, and the WBC for sanctioning the bloody fight... Boxing failed Shannon Briggs last Saturday, thankfully it would seem he's going to be okay.

I think the difficult thing for IJL was that Shannon always kept himself in a position to land a punch, even if he didn't throw it. He stayed in front of Vitali, didn't back off. He LOOKED as though he might be able to land a big shot, as though he believed in his ability to do it and was positioning himself to do it, but it just didn't happen. In the end, Shannon was a victim of his own bravery, toughness and self belief, all of which he is commended for. As Vitali said afterwards: 'He hurt himself in there.' If anyone could be argued to have let him down I think it was his corner, but he's since revealed that he told them not to pull him out. They might well have wanted to, we don't know.

What puzzles me about the last 8-10 or so guys the pair of them have faced is that they mostly just stand in front of them, like they've been snake charmed.

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the difficult thing for IJL was that Shannon always kept himself in a position to land a punch, even if he didn't throw it. He stayed in front of Vitali, didn't back off. He LOOKED as though he might be able to land a big shot, as though he believed in his ability to do it and was positioning himself to do it, but it just didn't happen. In the end, Shannon was a victim of his own bravery, toughness and self belief, all of which he is commended for. As Vitali said afterwards: 'He hurt himself in there.' If anyone could be argued to have let him down I think it was his corner, but he's since revealed that he told them not to pull him out. They might well have wanted to, we don't know.

People keep saying this about the corner but there job is to try and get their man to win the world heavyweight title, I agree it would have been nice to see them show compasion and pull him out but they have other agenda's whereas the refs first and foremost job is the health and safety of the boxers. IJL's reasoning for letting it go on was stupid, Briggs was never in the fight from round 1 to 12 and took a systamatic beating from round 1 to 12.

jonny wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the difficult thing for IJL was that Shannon always kept himself in a position to land a punch, even if he didn't throw it. He stayed in front of Vitali, didn't back off. He LOOKED as though he might be able to land a big shot, as though he believed in his ability to do it and was positioning himself to do it, but it just didn't happen. In the end, Shannon was a victim of his own bravery, toughness and self belief, all of which he is commended for. As Vitali said afterwards: 'He hurt himself in there.' If anyone could be argued to have let him down I think it was his corner, but he's since revealed that he told them not to pull him out. They might well have wanted to, we don't know.

People keep saying this about the corner but there job is to try and get their man to win the world heavyweight title, I agree it would have been nice to see them show compasion and pull him out but they have other agenda's whereas the refs first and foremost job is the health and safety of the boxers. IJL's reasoning for letting it go on was stupid, Briggs was never in the fight from round 1 to 12 and took a systamatic beating from round 1 to 12.

Just can't agree that IJL was to blame. A corner's responsibility, above all others, is the wellbeing of the fighter. They are supposed to be the ones who protect THEIR man from hurting himself, the referee is in an objective position while the corner is in a subjective position. Some corners have the professionalism and compassion to save their fighters from themselves, whether or not it would piss off said fighters. Buddy McGirt with Paulie Malignaggi vs Ricky Hatton for instance, that cost Buddy his job but he did what he believed to be best. I think it was Johnny Eames (correct me if I'm wrong, please) who got sacked by Graham Earl after Earl was pulled out of the Katsidis fight. It's a brave move for a corner to make, they are essentially going against the wishes of the man who pays them. But they are paid for their judgement of a fight, in all manner of ways, and I have nothing but respect for cornermen who will trust their judgement (which might not always be correct) even when the price of that may be their jobs. But not all cornermen are like that.

orbtastic wrote:What puzzles me about the last 8-10 or so guys the pair of them have faced is that they mostly just stand in front of them, like they've been snake charmed.

Can't exactly do much more else, they fill the ring. Running away isn't the right way. Sosnowski I think had the right idea against Vitali, but just didn't have the physical attributes to pull it off. Wladimir is by far the better boxer and you need to fight him differently to Vitali.

Glyn Leach wrote:

jonny wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the difficult thing for IJL was that Shannon always kept himself in a position to land a punch, even if he didn't throw it. He stayed in front of Vitali, didn't back off. He LOOKED as though he might be able to land a big shot, as though he believed in his ability to do it and was positioning himself to do it, but it just didn't happen. In the end, Shannon was a victim of his own bravery, toughness and self belief, all of which he is commended for. As Vitali said afterwards: 'He hurt himself in there.' If anyone could be argued to have let him down I think it was his corner, but he's since revealed that he told them not to pull him out. They might well have wanted to, we don't know.

People keep saying this about the corner but there job is to try and get their man to win the world heavyweight title, I agree it would have been nice to see them show compasion and pull him out but they have other agenda's whereas the refs first and foremost job is the health and safety of the boxers. IJL's reasoning for letting it go on was stupid, Briggs was never in the fight from round 1 to 12 and took a systamatic beating from round 1 to 12.

Just can't agree that IJL was to blame. A corner's responsibility, above all others, is the wellbeing of the fighter. They are supposed to be the ones who protect THEIR man from hurting himself, the referee is in an objective position while the corner is in a subjective position. Some corners have the professionalism and compassion to save their fighters from themselves, whether or not it would piss off said fighters. Buddy McGirt with Paulie Malignaggi vs Ricky Hatton for instance, that cost Buddy his job but he did what he believed to be best. I think it was Johnny Eames (correct me if I'm wrong, please) who got sacked by Graham Earl after Earl was pulled out of the Katsidis fight. It's a brave move for a corner to make, they are essentially going against the wishes of the man who pays them. But they are paid for their judgement of a fight, in all manner of ways, and I have nothing but respect for cornermen who will trust their judgement (which might not always be correct) even when the price of that may be their jobs. But not all cornermen are like that.

What is the ref's job then? To shout break? And if IJL didn't do a bad job, why should a ref ever stop a fight and not just wait for the corner to throw in the towel?
I find your view very odd. He had terrible facial swelling, was not landing any punches back and IJL did not even speak to a ringside doctor, when it was later discovered the boxer had a fractured optical bone.
For me IJL did a terrible job. Corner will always be too close to fighters to make a rational view. That's what the ref is for.

orbtastic wrote:What puzzles me about the last 8-10 or so guys the pair of them have faced is that they mostly just stand in front of them, like they've been snake charmed.

yeah, i think at some point you just have to give the brothers K at least some of the credit, here.

obviously they have been blessed with some of the most passive world title 'challengers' we have seen.

but my guess is that especially in Wlad's case he is doing something right, to make them look so.

there was a comment made, can't recall who by, on the thread in Current Scene where several Wlad opponents talk about how/why its difficult to fight him

what i found most interesting and pertinent to this part of the debate is a comment made on his footwork, fighter A was talking about how he stepped to one side to try and force wlad one way, but Wlad just (i am paraphrasing heavily here) sidestepped and got his preferred range and angle again, and he could do this to Fighter A pretty much at will

i think I'm leading towards saying, whilst it's not flashy and is quite subtle, Wlad's footwork and control/anticipation/understanding of distancing, plays a huge part in his success, as obviously it means he's most often able to fight at his preferred and most comfortable range. add that to his reach and superb jab and bingo bob's yer uncle, simples, etc etc etc.

its the only thing i can think of to explain the aforementioned passivity- i mean he has the saem effect on everyone no matter what, it seems, so i am thinking the common denominator must be something he is doing and not just the deficiencies of his 'challengers'. if that makes sense.