BoxRec

I would like to hear some moments in a fight that may or may not have seemed inconsequential at the time, that had tremendous impacts on boxing history as we know it. I am not talking about an entire fight, or fighters career.

I am thinking of things like:

-A single punch that bailed a fighter out, and maybe the loser never recovered from.

-A ref stopping a fight.

-A cut or headbutt that changed a fights outcome and eventually a career.

The biggest 1 minute (that I can think of) that changed the next 15 years and probably all of heavyweight boxing forever was between round 4 and 5 of Clay-Cooper. Did Dundee rip Clay's glove? If he doesn't get that extra time does he lose by TKO early in round 5? If Clay loses that fight he doesn't face Liston 6 months later, and that would have had a huge impact on his career. Who knows how many more fights he would have had to win to get a title shot. Liston may have reigned for another 2-3 years and he could certainly have found his way on to most top 10 all-time heavyweights.



Another instance was the refs stoppage of the Taylor-Chavez fight. I am not arguing wrong or right, I am just saying that was an enormous split second decision. It allowed Chavez to keep his streak alive, and in turn he kept it going for another 20 or so fights.

If it doesn't get stopped, Taylor wins the decision. He was never the same after that fight. Granted he did take some punishment, but his career going downhill must have been mostly mental after that loss. Some fighters never get over being "robbed" (whether he was or wasn't). If he wins that decision who knows how long he could have held the title? Could we have seen him in a showdown with Pernell Whitaker a couple of years later?

I am sure there are far better ones, but those just came to mind as I was watching Taylor-Chavez Legendary Nights today.

Let's hear some good ones....

The extra 5 seconds?

Darling wrote:The extra 5 seconds?

Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced. When the 5th round started Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving Cooper's face streaming with blood and referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favour although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal

You can see Dundee call over the ref at about :40 seconds after Ali sat down. There were no spare gloves at ringside, so if someone ran to the locker room and brought back a glove, then put it on Clay in under :30 seconds, I would love to meet this speedster.

But, I have read both versions and for a moment I can just agree with you that it was only 5 seconds. That was still an important moment in boxing history because Dundee used an illegal substance to wake up Clay. So I guess I could change my question to either: what if Dundee didn't cheat and Clay lost because he was still on queer street to start the round. Or, what if he was disqualified for Dundee using an illegal substance in the corner? Either way it has the same effect on the premise I wrote, which is Ali losing to Cooper.

You could feel free to contribute your own story or moment in boxing history and add to the topic, rather than nitpicking something someone else said.

Tyson’s ear bite turned many people off the sport.

Dempsey not returning to the neutral corner may have prevented him from being the first to reclaim the title.

Fitzsimmons’ famous solar plexus punch certainly made a huge difference to history.

Foreman’s shot that KO’d Moorer.

Jack Johnson vs Tommy Burns

Mancini vs Duk Koo Kim

We now have 12 rounders championship fights.

Ezzard wrote:Tyson’s ear bite turned many people off the sport.

Dempsey not returning to the neutral corner may have prevented him from being the first to reclaim the title.

Fitzsimmons’ famous solar plexus punch certainly made a huge difference to history.

Foreman’s shot that KO’d Moorer.

Great list. The Dempsey one is exactly the kind of thing I was imagining. Something so small at that moment that changed pretty much the course of heavyweight history forever. If Dempsey does go on to get it back who knows where his career goes from there? Do you think he fights maybe just one more time and retires as champion like Tunney?

The Foreman punch both essentially ruined Moorer's career and gave us the Foreman Grill. That was a huge punch.

They almost always have to go out on a defeat. I believe he’d have fought again and lost. But regaining it would have done for Dempsey what the Moorer win did for George. Also depends on what Tunney went on to do afterwards.

What about if the ref had stopped Hagler due to his cut against Hearns?

The Most Infamous Ref stoppage of probably the last 20 years was probably Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Cesar Chavez. Taylor had beaten Chavez on points decidely and could not lose so long as he was not stopped. He gets rocked at about the 25 second mark, after being hit a few more times, he gets dropped, making it to his feet at the count of 9. There are only precious few seconds left, so few seconds that once the referee cleans off his gloves and says fight, the bell will ring and the fight will be over, no more punches to be taken for Taylor. The ref though simply says " I see a beaten man in front of me, I'm stopping the fight, I don't care about the time". Meldrick Taylor beats Chavez for 35 minutes and 58 seconds, but loses to Chavez. I'd say that one fits a few categories.

How bout Stevenson dying after/during his fight with Broughton?

Eubank vs Watson ..........health and safety was totally changed after that fight in British boxing

jrc26 wrote:

Darling wrote:The extra 5 seconds?

Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced. When the 5th round started Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving Cooper's face streaming with blood and referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favour although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal

You can see Dundee call over the ref at about :40 seconds after Ali sat down. There were no spare gloves at ringside, so if someone ran to the locker room and brought back a glove, then put it on Clay in under :30 seconds, I would love to meet this speedster.

But, I have read both versions and for a moment I can just agree with you that it was only 5 seconds. That was still an important moment in boxing history because Dundee used an illegal substance to wake up Clay. So I guess I could change my question to either: what if Dundee didn't cheat and Clay lost because he was still on queer street to start the round. Or, what if he was disqualified for Dundee using an illegal substance in the corner? Either way it has the same effect on the premise I wrote, which is Ali losing to Cooper.

You could feel free to contribute your own story or moment in boxing history and add to the topic, rather than nitpicking something someone else said.

Sure, pal, why let facts get in the way of a good story?

jrc26 wrote:I would like to hear some moments in a fight that may or may not have seemed inconsequential at the time, that had tremendous impacts on boxing history as we know it. I am not talking about an entire fight, or fighters career.

I am thinking of things like:

-A single punch that bailed a fighter out, and maybe the loser never recovered from.

-A ref stopping a fight.

-A cut or headbutt that changed a fights outcome and eventually a career.

The biggest 1 minute (that I can think of) that changed the next 15 years and probably all of heavyweight boxing forever was between round 4 and 5 of Clay-Cooper. Did Dundee rip Clay's glove? If he doesn't get that extra time does he lose by TKO early in round 5? If Clay loses that fight he doesn't face Liston 6 months later, and that would have had a huge impact on his career. Who knows how many more fights he would have had to win to get a title shot. Liston may have reigned for another 2-3 years and he could certainly have found his way on to most top 10 all-time heavyweights.



Another instance was the refs stoppage of the Taylor-Chavez fight. I am not arguing wrong or right, I am just saying that was an enormous split second decision. It allowed Chavez to keep his streak alive, and in turn he kept it going for another 20 or so fights.

If it doesn't get stopped, Taylor wins the decision. He was never the same after that fight. Granted he did take some punishment, but his career going downhill must have been mostly mental after that loss. Some fighters never get over being "robbed" (whether he was or wasn't). If he wins that decision who knows how long he could have held the title? Could we have seen him in a showdown with Pernell Whitaker a couple of years later?

I am sure there are far better ones, but those just came to mind as I was watching Taylor-Chavez Legendary Nights today.

Let's hear some good ones....

Ali was not going to lose to the likes of Henry Cooper.

You are inflating this Ali-Cooper thing way beyond what really went down.

Darling wrote:

jrc26 wrote:

Darling wrote:The extra 5 seconds?

Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced. When the 5th round started Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving Cooper's face streaming with blood and referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favour although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal

You can see Dundee call over the ref at about :40 seconds after Ali sat down. There were no spare gloves at ringside, so if someone ran to the locker room and brought back a glove, then put it on Clay in under :30 seconds, I would love to meet this speedster.

But, I have read both versions and for a moment I can just agree with you that it was only 5 seconds. That was still an important moment in boxing history because Dundee used an illegal substance to wake up Clay. So I guess I could change my question to either: what if Dundee didn't cheat and Clay lost because he was still on queer street to start the round. Or, what if he was disqualified for Dundee using an illegal substance in the corner? Either way it has the same effect on the premise I wrote, which is Ali losing to Cooper.

You could feel free to contribute your own story or moment in boxing history and add to the topic, rather than nitpicking something someone else said.

Sure, pal, why let facts get in the way of a good story?

You were there? Those aren't my facts. I copied and pasted an article about it. Seriously, feel free to watch the fight and see Dundee use and illegal substance to wake Ali up.

yancey wrote:

jrc26 wrote:I would like to hear some moments in a fight that may or may not have seemed inconsequential at the time, that had tremendous impacts on boxing history as we know it. I am not talking about an entire fight, or fighters career.

I am thinking of things like:

-A single punch that bailed a fighter out, and maybe the loser never recovered from.

-A ref stopping a fight.

-A cut or headbutt that changed a fights outcome and eventually a career.

The biggest 1 minute (that I can think of) that changed the next 15 years and probably all of heavyweight boxing forever was between round 4 and 5 of Clay-Cooper. Did Dundee rip Clay's glove? If he doesn't get that extra time does he lose by TKO early in round 5? If Clay loses that fight he doesn't face Liston 6 months later, and that would have had a huge impact on his career. Who knows how many more fights he would have had to win to get a title shot. Liston may have reigned for another 2-3 years and he could certainly have found his way on to most top 10 all-time heavyweights.



Another instance was the refs stoppage of the Taylor-Chavez fight. I am not arguing wrong or right, I am just saying that was an enormous split second decision. It allowed Chavez to keep his streak alive, and in turn he kept it going for another 20 or so fights.

If it doesn't get stopped, Taylor wins the decision. He was never the same after that fight. Granted he did take some punishment, but his career going downhill must have been mostly mental after that loss. Some fighters never get over being "robbed" (whether he was or wasn't). If he wins that decision who knows how long he could have held the title? Could we have seen him in a showdown with Pernell Whitaker a couple of years later?

I am sure there are far better ones, but those just came to mind as I was watching Taylor-Chavez Legendary Nights today.

Let's hear some good ones....

Ali was not going to lose to the likes of Henry Cooper.

You are inflating this Ali-Cooper thing way beyond what really went down.

He wasn't? He was saved by the bell. If there was another minute in that round there is a high chance Cooper finishes him. That is by far the most hurt Ali has ever been in a fight. Frazier didn't hurt him in their first fight, Foreman couldn't do it, Holmes lambasted him for 10-11 rounds and he couldn't knock him down. So I am not sure what you mean by "the likes of Henry Cooper". Cooper did something to Ali that 50 other professionals couldn't do, and that is have him legitimately on queer street.

I feel like neither you or the other troll have actually seen the fight. It is on youtube, you can watch Ali's eyes roll back into his head as the ropes save him from flying into the 3rd row. Then you can watch Dundee cheat to wake him up.

Ali is one of my 3-4 favorite fighters ever and even I can objectively admit he escaped that fight.

jrc26 wrote:

yancey wrote:

jrc26 wrote:I would like to hear some moments in a fight that may or may not have seemed inconsequential at the time, that had tremendous impacts on boxing history as we know it. I am not talking about an entire fight, or fighters career.

I am thinking of things like:

-A single punch that bailed a fighter out, and maybe the loser never recovered from.

-A ref stopping a fight.

-A cut or headbutt that changed a fights outcome and eventually a career.

The biggest 1 minute (that I can think of) that changed the next 15 years and probably all of heavyweight boxing forever was between round 4 and 5 of Clay-Cooper. Did Dundee rip Clay's glove? If he doesn't get that extra time does he lose by TKO early in round 5? If Clay loses that fight he doesn't face Liston 6 months later, and that would have had a huge impact on his career. Who knows how many more fights he would have had to win to get a title shot. Liston may have reigned for another 2-3 years and he could certainly have found his way on to most top 10 all-time heavyweights.



Another instance was the refs stoppage of the Taylor-Chavez fight. I am not arguing wrong or right, I am just saying that was an enormous split second decision. It allowed Chavez to keep his streak alive, and in turn he kept it going for another 20 or so fights.

If it doesn't get stopped, Taylor wins the decision. He was never the same after that fight. Granted he did take some punishment, but his career going downhill must have been mostly mental after that loss. Some fighters never get over being "robbed" (whether he was or wasn't). If he wins that decision who knows how long he could have held the title? Could we have seen him in a showdown with Pernell Whitaker a couple of years later?

I am sure there are far better ones, but those just came to mind as I was watching Taylor-Chavez Legendary Nights today.

Let's hear some good ones....

Ali was not going to lose to the likes of Henry Cooper.

You are inflating this Ali-Cooper thing way beyond what really went down.

He wasn't? He was saved by the bell. If there was another minute in that round there is a high chance Cooper finishes him. That is by far the most hurt Ali has ever been in a fight. Frazier didn't hurt him in their first fight, Foreman couldn't do it, Holmes lambasted him for 10-11 rounds and he couldn't knock him down. So I am not sure what you mean by "the likes of Henry Cooper". Cooper did something to Ali that 50 other professionals couldn't do, and that is have him legitimately on queer street.

I feel like neither you or the other troll have actually seen the fight. It is on youtube, you can watch Ali's eyes roll back into his head as the ropes save him from flying into the 3rd row. Then you can watch Dundee cheat to wake him up.

Ali is one of my 3-4 favorite fighters ever and even I can objectively admit he escaped that fight.

Have a good night, bud.

If only there was no documentation, it could actually be a part of folklore culture and as legendary as the David and Goliath battle. However nearly everything you are babbling about the Cooper-Clay fight....especially about the time aspect, has no reality. Render the minutes to seconds and you begin to capture the real time empirical aspects. Not that reality is the coin of the realm when it comes to describing iconic moments in battle. I'd say it's ok to say he was saved by the bell. But that's about as far as it goes.


Though I have heard (and repeated) that the fight was called on account of darkness, and after check in to a fine hotel, and a good 8 hour nap, Clay was rested enough to turn things around the next morning.

How about Vitali's decision to quit against Chris Byrd? It's forever marked him...

Chavez - Taylor is a good shout.

I'd go for Duran's gutless retirement during the 2nd Leonard fight.

Douglas VS Tyson

jrc26 wrote:But, I have read both versions and for a moment I can just agree with you that it was only 5 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzQZReUi3m4

to me cooper doesn't seem to be a liar.

sweetsci wrote:How about Vitali's decision to quit against Chris Byrd? It's forever marked him...

well, but that hardly "changed boxing history" ...

man wrote:

sweetsci wrote:How about Vitali's decision to quit against Chris Byrd? It's forever marked him...

well, but that hardly "changed boxing history" ...

No man! Vitali is the best ever! Just no one would give him a chance after that Byrd fight!

Just kidding... Somehow I misread the OP's intention when I posted about Vitali... Ooops...

What about Mike Weaver vs Big John Tate

Tyson - Spinks. Spinks was never the same.