BoxRec

I just can't understand how Toney is so highly rated by members of the press.

He was very lucky to get the decision against:

Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum I (a draw) and was flat out beaten by Dave Tiberi.

He barely put a glove on Roy Jones Jnr, lost to Montell Griffin TWICE and also got beat by the legend that is Drake Thadzi.

Yes he beat Michael Nunn and Vassily Jirov. Both, very impressive results I have to admit.

He even had to cheat to beat John Ruiz.

For me his mouth and bad attitude cloud a lot of people's judgement

As with any fighter you can go up and down his list of fights and cherry pick fights to suit your argument. I am not sure how you overrate a guy who has 72 career wins in this day and age. If it is so easy please show me someone else who is even close to that.

You call him lucky to get a draw against McCallum, but then don't count his 2 wins against McCallum. He beat Iran Barkley easily. You also say he beat Ruiz because he "cheated". John Ruiz doesn't beat James Toney on any night, with or without steroids.

He also knocked out Holyfield 7 years ago. If it is so easy and Holyfield was shot, then why didn't the heavyweight champions Valuev or Ibragimov KO him just a couple of years ago? Actually why hasn't any other man besides Toney and Bowe knocked him out?

I also give him big time credit for his first fight with Peter. I thought he won that fight by several points, and that is before Peter became a punching bag.

So yeah you can cherry pick and make any fighter sound like a clown. There have been threads on here doing the same thing with Ali, Foreman, and just about any other fighter you can name. The fact is he is a multi-division champion who won 72 fights, which in today's boxing world is equivalent to about 120 wins.

Also, there is no shame in not laying a glove on RJJ in 1994. Nobody did.

jrc26 wrote:As with any fighter you can go up and down his list of fights and cherry pick fights to suit your argument. I am not sure how you overrate a guy who has 72 career wins in this day and age. If it is so easy please show me someone else who is even close to that.

You call him lucky to get a draw against McCallum, but then don't count his 2 wins against McCallum. He beat Iran Barkley easily. You also say he beat Ruiz because he "cheated". John Ruiz doesn't beat James Toney on any night, with or without steroids.

He also knocked out Holyfield 7 years ago. If it is so easy and Holyfield was shot, then why didn't the heavyweight champions Valuev or Ibragimov KO him just a couple of years ago? Actually why hasn't any other man besides Toney and Bowe knocked him out?

I also give him big time credit for his first fight with Peter. I thought he won that fight by several points, and that is before Peter became a punching bag.

So yeah you can cherry pick and make any fighter sound like a clown. There have been threads on here doing the same thing with Ali, Foreman, and just about any other fighter you can name. The fact is he is a multi-division champion who won 72 fights, which in today's boxing world is equivalent to about 120 wins.

Also, there is no shame in not laying a glove on RJJ in 1994. Nobody did.

Nice post, I'm not a fan of the man but he was a hell of a fighter. A notch or two below Jones & hopkins as a comparison to peers in or around his weight. But those guys are top 50ish all time fighters. I'd put James in the top 100.

I just watched the Prince Charles Williams fight again the other day. That was a thriller.

I agree KO'ing Holyfield was an achievement. Toney is top shelf, like the man or not.

BoxBuzz wrote:I agree KO'ing Holyfield was an achievement. Toney is top shelf, like the man or not.

KO'ing a shot Holyfield is not that big an achievement - no matter how many times Holyfield lost on points afterwards.

Please explain how a top shelf fighter can lose twice to Montel Griffin.

I guess I am in the middle with this one. I agree that the win over Holyfield didn't mean much.
Griffin was a good fighter, but to lose twice to him has to count against him, even if they were close.
The Tiberi "win" has to count against him.
The sheer amount of wins doesn't mean much; anyone decent could have beat most of those guys. Some good fighters choose to fight tomato cans and some don't.

On the other hand, he had those fights with McCallum who was a really good fighter.
The wins over Nunn, Prince Williams and Jirov and a few others were respectable.

He had a lot talent but could be lazy at times. Other times he was a great fighter.

keithmoonhangover wrote:I just can't understand how Toney is so highly rated by members of the press.

He was very lucky to get the decision against:

Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum I (a draw) and was flat out beaten by Dave Tiberi.

He barely put a glove on Roy Jones Jnr, lost to Montell Griffin TWICE and also got beat by the legend that is Drake Thadzi.

Yes he beat Michael Nunn and Vassily Jirov. Both, very impressive results I have to admit.

He even had to cheat to beat John Ruiz.

For me his mouth and bad attitude cloud a lot of people's judgement

Go back to the Current Scene

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Nice post, I'm not a fan of the man but he was a hell of a fighter. A notch or two below Jones & hopkins

x2

keithmoonhangover wrote:I just can't understand how Toney is so highly rated by members of the press.

He was very lucky to get the decision against:

Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum I (a draw) and was flat out beaten by Dave Tiberi.

He barely put a glove on Roy Jones Jnr, lost to Montell Griffin TWICE and also got beat by the legend that is Drake Thadzi.

Yes he beat Michael Nunn and Vassily Jirov. Both, very impressive results I have to admit.

He even had to cheat to beat John Ruiz.

For me his mouth and bad attitude cloud a lot of people's judgement

Idiot..

dom74 wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:I just can't understand how Toney is so highly rated by members of the press.

He was very lucky to get the decision against:

Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum I (a draw) and was flat out beaten by Dave Tiberi.

He barely put a glove on Roy Jones Jnr, lost to Montell Griffin TWICE and also got beat by the legend that is Drake Thadzi.

Yes he beat Michael Nunn and Vassily Jirov. Both, very impressive results I have to admit.

He even had to cheat to beat John Ruiz.

For me his mouth and bad attitude cloud a lot of people's judgement

Idiot..

What a well thought out comment. I bet it took you ages to think of that. I liked the way you explained your reason and put forward your own arguement.

Don't be critical of him, not everyone can be verbally eloquent in their contributions.

Toney had remarkable skills. You need to go watch some tapes, and come back with an updated written report on the subject.

He did have some great skills. He just did not always use them. I don't think he is "massively overrated". However he clearly is overrated by many.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

dom74 wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:I just can't understand how Toney is so highly rated by members of the press.

He was very lucky to get the decision against:

Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum I (a draw) and was flat out beaten by Dave Tiberi.

He barely put a glove on Roy Jones Jnr, lost to Montell Griffin TWICE and also got beat by the legend that is Drake Thadzi.

Yes he beat Michael Nunn and Vassily Jirov. Both, very impressive results I have to admit.

He even had to cheat to beat John Ruiz.

For me his mouth and bad attitude cloud a lot of people's judgement

Idiot..

What a well thought out comment. I bet it took you ages to think of that. I liked the way you explained your reason and put forward your own arguement.

Neither his post nor yours was well thought-out. The distinction is his is at least correct.

Toney will deservedly make it into the IBHOF on the basis of his being a top fighter in every weight class from MW to HW. His record and the fact he's never been stopped will also help. On the other hand though, he belongs nowhere near the top of any alltime weight divisions, with the exception of Cruiserweight.

Seamus wrote:Toney will deservedly make it into the IBHOF on the basis of his being a top fighter in every weight class from MW to HW. His record and the fact he's never been stopped will also help. On the other hand though, he belongs nowhere near the top of any alltime weight divisions, with the exception of Cruiserweight.

How about Super-Middle? No room for him near the best of all-time there, in your view?

Top 10, maybe even top 5, but the division hasen't been around long enough.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I agree KO'ing Holyfield was an achievement. Toney is top shelf, like the man or not.

KO'ing a shot Holyfield is not that big an achievement - no matter how many times Holyfield lost on points afterwards.

Please explain how a top shelf fighter can lose twice to Montel Griffin.

How can a top shelf fighter lose to Rustico Torrecampo and Medgoen Singsurat? Sh!t happens?

Montel gave RJJ alllllll he could handle in their first fight before it was stopped on a stupid DQ. Montel wasn't exactly a slouch at that time and sometimes good fighters just struggle with a certain fighter for one reason or another. Ali lost to Norton once for sure, and some would argue 2 or 3 times. I don't think anyone on this planet would say Norton is a better fighter or that Ali loses his spot on the all-time list because of it. (Well actually there is one idiot/troll on this board who has thankfully disappeared as of recently who might)

I agree with everyone's further assessment as to his placement. I would say somewhere between 75-100. Had his win against Ruiz held up and he made a defense or 2 of his title I could easily see him between 60-75.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Seamus wrote:Toney will deservedly make it into the IBHOF on the basis of his being a top fighter in every weight class from MW to HW. His record and the fact he's never been stopped will also help. On the other hand though, he belongs nowhere near the top of any alltime weight divisions, with the exception of Cruiserweight.

How about Super-Middle? No room for him near the best of all-time there, in your view?

Agreed. How can he even sniff a spot on the cruiserweight list based basically off if his one win, as great of a fight as that was, but not at Super-Middle?

His only other solid win at cruiser was against Michael Rush who was C-class at his very best. People forget he was considered a forgotten/shot/joke leading into that fight with Jirov. He made about a 2-3 year run on ESPN FNF's with some very boring and uninspired wins. Jirov really had no reason to give him that fight except for his name, and then Toney came in and fought maybe his last great fight.

Anyone else remember how they scored Toney-Peter I? I had Toney winning by 3 and I thought the scoring by the 2 judges who only had him winning 3 rounds was absolutely pathetic. I thought he fought his best fight at heavyweight that night, and the judges were simply blinded by Peter's 1 big club he would land to the back of Toney's head per round, and didn't notice James' counter and straight right hand that the clocked Peter with alllll night. I think that is a very underrated fight. I have watched it several times.

Yes, but Peter is awful. Not much of an accomplisment in beating him.

I score the first fight vs Peter a close one, but for Peter. Anyhow the second fight was a clear win by Peter. But I should point out that Toney was past his best at that time.

Having said that, I don't think Toney is over-rated at all. His defense was above average and he went all the way to heavyweight and was able to compete. I don't think nobody rates him as best of the best. For me he was an above average fighter with good skills, and he deservely belongs in IBHOF in my opinion.

Ambling Alp wrote:Yes, but Peter is awful. Not much of an accomplisment in beating him.

Peter IS awful. Peter was top 2-3 in the division. At that time he only had one loss and that was to Wlad. who he gave plenty of trouble to. You can't base Toney's performance against that Sam Peter on anything you see of Peter today. That was a good fight and many many people thought Toney would absolutely get clobbered.

Had Toney have the same discipline of B-Hop, Pacman, JMM... He would definitely have a more stronger legacy.

For the record I thought Toney won both fights with Montell Griffin, the 1st fight was close, the 2nd fight he was outright robbed. Watch them before you hate.

Dave Tiberi gave a good account of himself, but it was a close enough fight that Toney winning it isn't just outright robbery like people would have you believe. Tiberi was busier the whole fight, Toney was more accurate, Tiberi won several rounds on workrate alone, Toney won some rounds by landing the better shots. It could've gone either way, it went Toney's way. That's all there is to it.

I also thought Toney beat Sam Peter the 1st time around. And yes a knockout win over Holyfield considering that Holyfield has some decent wins, and no knockouts losses since then is damn good.

Add to the fact wins over. Vassily Jirov in a thriller, Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn awesome come from behind knockout, Prince Charles Williams, Tim Littles ( winning by knockout, while suffering from a potentially fight ending cut ).

Toney has had an awesome career. Don't disrespect "Lights Out" you SOB's!!!

Toney probably would have slaughtered Tiberi had their been a rematch, but regardless of that, there's no way Toney won there fight. I had Tiberi winning by 6 pts. Also, I had Terry McGroom beating Toney by 2pts at Cruiserweight.