BoxRec

No this isn't a wind- up topic.

I'm looking into the fighter and wondering whether he gets a bad press or no.

I've posted the same topic on several sites to gauge opinion - I chose these sites as the members are hardcore boxing fans.

The other hardcore sites:
http://boxrec.com/forum/index.php
http://boxingbanter.com/index.php
http://budweiserboxing.forumcircle.com/index.php
http://thebtbc.com/index.php
http://boxingbb.com/index.php
http://talkboxingwithbillyc.proboards.com/index.cgi

This is a fighter that reigned for years at Super Middleweight though never Unified and you had the likes of Joe Calzaghe and fellow German Marcus Beyer in the division. He won the IBF title in his 13th fight against American Charles Brewer. He then defended it 21 times.

His record is here: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

Is the man a great or not? Does he make the Hall Of Fame?

It's an achievement to stay undefeated and retire as a world champion, but then you look at his record and see only 6 ko's and the fact that he never fought outside Germany/Austria. And some of the decisions he was given were generous to say the least.

He does have a handful good names on there e.g. Glen Johnson/Robin Reid (and it is ONLY a handful), but I think you need to prove yourself abroad to even come close to being considered a great. He won't get into the HoF either, for that reason.

He retired with a shweet bank balance and all his faculties intact though, so fair play to him.

He had way too many close fights against underwhelming opposition to be a great and his level of opposition wasn't impressive. He never beat anyone who I would consider an elite fighter. SMW wasn't really a bastion of talent at the time, which he can't be blamed for. His best wins were probably over Glen Johnson, Byron Mitchell, and Charles Brewer, and all those fights were very close. That isn't enough to warrant hall of famer status. Yes, he went undefeated, but I think a lot more fighters with losses on their record would have their 0 intact if they faced Ottke's level of opposition--many of whom were EBU level fighters or worse (Butler, Gatti, Pudwill, etc.). Quality should be given far more weight in these discussions than quantity.

James Crawford
James Butler
Joe Gatti
Anthony Mundine (in his 10th fight)
Ali Ennebati
Silvio Branco
Tocker Pudwill
Charles Brewer
Robin Reid
Rudy Markussen
Armand Krajnc
David Starie
Rick Thornberry
Giovanni Nardiello
Gabriel Hernandez
Thomas Tate
Lloyd Bryan

Depends on the defition of a great?

Is he in the same bracket as a hagler for example?......No - not close.

Was he underated, a lot better than people give him credit and worthy of a place in the Hof - then I would say yes.

Its an international boxing hall of fame after all, and no one can deny the impact Ottke made to German boxing. 21 defences, I personally only thought he was lucky in just one fight (larsen). Joe would have been a clear choice for the Hall of Fame, even before the Hopkins fight - and I would say Ottke resume at Super Middle if VERY comparable to Joe's. Its a slight edge to Joe for the Kessler win, but its slight and in the main Ottke beat better fighters. Ottke has Johnson, Mundine, Branco and Tate amongst his defences - all of whom would have been amongst Calzaghe's better opponents.

The Mitchell fight WASN'T close, Crusader.

Joe's win over Hopkins is far more impressive than anything Ottke has ever done. That alone is enough to seperate them for me. I also think Kessler is better than anyone Ottke defeated, and Joe's win was very clear cut.

stujones wrote:The Mitchell fight WASN'T close, Crusader.

I thought it was, as did the vast majority of people who watched it (including the judges in Germany).

crusader wrote:Joe's win over Hopkins is far more impressive than anything Ottke has ever done. That alone is enough to seperate them for me. I also think Kessler is better than anyone Ottke defeated, and Joe's win was very clear cut.

I agree, thats why I mentioned both of these fights and mentioned that I think Joe would have been in the HOF, probably at the first time he was eligable, BEFORE the Hopkins fight. However, I do think BEFORE Hopkins - there wasn't that much to seperate Ottke and Joe.

crusader wrote:

stujones wrote:The Mitchell fight WASN'T close, Crusader.

I thought it was, as did the vast majority of people who watched it (including the judges in Germany).

I'll agree to disagree there. I thought the judging was way out - The Eurosport commentator (it wasn't Holdsworth) had Ottke a mile infront, and well the people I've talked to (including many on this forum) have said its one of those fights in which yanks cry robbery without even seeing the fight.

Judges can sometimes not score fights for the homefighter.

Well I thought it was a close fight, although it definitely wasn't a robbery. Ottke boxed well and showed good defense and counters, but Mitchell still did enough to keep things competetive and close in my view. I think the pair of judges who had Ottke up by two were on the money.

was he great, no

should he enter the hall of fame, no

He is better than he is credited for by the international boxing community, but there is the impression that he had far too many close fights which went in his favour, no matter what. The obvious is the Reid fight where he was legitamatly dropped yet the ref inexplicably called it a slip, then Reid was warned for actually punching Ottke in the face! It's things like this that make people view him and his record with suspision.

He was good fighter, certainly not great and I very much doubt he will get in the HOF because he only fought at home, only had 6 KO's and had far too many fights that could have gone either way if it weren't for home time bias.

No.

stujones wrote:Depends on the defition of a great?

Is he in the same bracket as a hagler for example?......No - not close.

Was he underated, a lot better than people give him credit and worthy of a place in the Hof - then I would say yes.

Its an international boxing hall of fame after all, and no one can deny the impact Ottke made to German boxing. 21 defences, I personally only thought he was lucky in just one fight (larsen). Joe would have been a clear choice for the Hall of Fame, even before the Hopkins fight - and I would say Ottke resume at Super Middle if VERY comparable to Joe's. Its a slight edge to Joe for the Kessler win, but its slight and in the main Ottke beat better fighters. Ottke has Johnson, Mundine, Branco and Tate amongst his defences - all of whom would have been amongst Calzaghe's better opponents.

You didn't think he was lucky in the Reid fight?? That's some of the worst refereeing and scoring I've ever seen. The guy had Eubank style judging most of his career!

Lucky in terms of the referee yes, in terms of the scoring no.

And no he didn't have bad judgments most of his career. Give me these examples?

No !

in the purest sense of the word "great" no he isnt obviously. 99% wouldnt even make him mike mccallum or felix trinidad great............but damn these germans and the way they create "stars"......there was definetly something about him.... on paper he never fought outside germany......powder puff puncher.....people accused him of benefiting from hometown judges..........but yknow what? watching him make title defences every 2 months back in the early 2000s on eurosport with steve holdsworth looking sarcastically on was a real pleasure.

some of the fights i didnt see any robbery such as reid, brewer,johnson.......and its highly impressive the way he was such a distinguidhed amateur champion and turned pro so late and won a world title so quick and defended it so many times and retired unbeaten. up until calzaghe beat lacey id have argued ottke had the better resume.

he couldnt punch on paper but when u watched his fights he made big men like silvio branco,james butler, brewer and tate and others cover up every time he attacked and he knocked mundine out with 1 shot in a fight he was being shut out of, and in his time he did defeat the best american sm's out there even if it was a very weak crop.

ultimately i say no because if someone had turned the mw-sm clock back 10 years ottke would have been murdered by benn,barkley,jackson let alone rjj,toney,nunn,or mccallum.

mugabi wrote:in the purest sense of the word "great" no he isnt obviously. 99% wouldnt even make him mike mccallum or felix trinidad great............but damn these germans and the way they create "stars"......there was definetly something about him.... on paper he never fought outside germany......powder puff puncher.....people accused him of benefiting from hometown judges..........but yknow what? watching him make title defences every 2 months back in the early 2000s on eurosport with steve holdsworth looking sarcastically on was a real pleasure.

some of the fights i didnt see any robbery such as reid, brewer,johnson.......and its highly impressive the way he was such a distinguidhed amateur champion and turned pro so late and won a world title so quick and defended it so many times and retired unbeaten. up until calzaghe beat lacey id have argued ottke had the better resume.

he couldnt punch on paper but when u watched his fights he made big men like silvio branco,james butler, brewer and tate and others cover up every time he attacked and he knocked mundine out with 1 shot in a fight he was being shut out of, and in his time he did defeat the best american sm's out there even if it was a very weak crop.

ultimately i say no because if someone had turned the mw-sm clock back 10 years ottke would have been murdered by benn,barkley,jackson let alone rjj,toney,nunn,or mccallum.

Great post

giving him his due, he was a cute awkward very astute defensive fighter, who often did enough to sway the hometown judges.

Questionable Hopkins win aside and the kessler win, very comparable to Calzaghe.

mugabi wrote:. up until calzaghe beat lacey id have argued ottke had the better resume.

My thoughts exactly. At the very least they were on level terms. Pre-Lacy, their best wins were against the same guys. Obviously Calzaghe pulled away at the end of his career, but they were neck-and-neck for a long time.

In terms of names, yes pre-Lacy Calzaghe and Ottke were similar (I think Ring Magazine rated Ottke higher than Calzaghe at that point). The difference is Calzaghe had the balls to go abroad (Germany, Denmark). Hard places to go & get a win.

No.

greenyox3 wrote:In terms of names, yes pre-Lacy Calzaghe and Ottke were similar (I think Ring Magazine rated Ottke higher than Calzaghe at that point). The difference is Calzaghe had the balls to go abroad (Germany, Denmark). Hard places to go & get a win.

Well I'm sure Joe and Frank were particularly fearful that he wouldn't beat Mario Veit (whom he stopped in a round) and Will Kid Fire McIntyre.

I would say Calzaghe edged it after Kessler, but I would actually have Ottke slightly higher had Joe retired after Lacy. Johnson and Mundine are pretty solid wins.

stujones wrote:

greenyox3 wrote:In terms of names, yes pre-Lacy Calzaghe and Ottke were similar (I think Ring Magazine rated Ottke higher than Calzaghe at that point). The difference is Calzaghe had the balls to go abroad (Germany, Denmark). Hard places to go & get a win.

Well I'm sure Joe and Frank were particularly fearful that he wouldn't beat Mario Veit (whom he stopped in a round) and Will Kid Fire McIntyre.

I would say Calzaghe edged it after Kessler, but I would actually have Ottke slightly higher had Joe retired after Lacy. Johnson and Mundine are pretty solid wins.

You mean the Mundine who'd had 10 fights at the time and who's now a LMW? Johnson I'll give you.

I'm sure Ottke wasn't shitting himself about Joe Gatti, but he didn't fight him in his back yard did he? No matter who you're against, it's always harder away from home.