BoxRec

He would have had real trouble against Jack Johnson.

Do you agree with him?

As with these things, always difficult to predict and whilst I predict Johnson would have troubled many a great, Holmes is not one of them, in my humble opinion.

I just think Larry's superb jab would simply keep Johnson where Larry wanted him and whilst Jack would pick the majority off, I couldn't really see him getting his offence going.

Johnson vs almost any other HW Champ, he is in with a fair argument and then again you never know, he could win this one, too.

I believe Larry would handle him alot better than the majority would.

Yes.

Holmes kicks Johnson's ass imho, Johnson is one of the more overated HW's I have ever seen, and I base this on the fight films, Johnson was clinching every ten seconds, a Larry Holmes would impale him with his jab

Of course he would have had a tough fight against Johnson. Johnson fought a style unlike anyone Holmes ever fought, and was not easy to hit with a clean punch. He would have been a tough fight for anyone. I should add that the ref would have a great deal of influence in any fight between fighters of significantly different eras, and my thoughts are based on a ref who would have let johnson fight his fight.

It would have been a very close defensive fight. There probably would have been several rounds that were close. It would have almost certainly have gone the distance. Would the referee have let johnson clinch a lot? Probably. Almost all of them let them, usually without a warning. Ruiz held more than Johnson and Lewis was pretty close.
Even if the referee would not allow it, Johnson probably would adjust. Most great fighters could adjust to something like this.

Johnson would win, I have little doubt. He would've exposed Larry's defensive gaps and countered him often. It would have been competitive, but if you people think Larry would be able to just dance around Johnson and throw left jabs you are sorely mistaken.

dempseyfire wrote:Johnson would win, I have little doubt.

I agree.

I want to know the reasons as to why the majority of you guys think that.

Holmes, if anything, is the most underated HW champion of all time, while Johnson arguably is the most overated.

over 12, 15, or 25 rounds ???

Johnson's only chance imho would be a 25 rounder.

HomicideHenry wrote:Johnson's only chance imho would be a 25 rounder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtuTIJS-7o

Look at the defense. Defense= 'glove blocking' & clinching

Very little action in this fight w/ Moran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWA5xjJ0-4

Hands down so low a Larry Holmes would knock his head off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMZQUCVrN6I

Gets knocked down by a 150 pound middleweight
Again, clinching, and glove blocking every ten seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8iq9FHFwx4

Literally lunges, charges, wrestles w/ Jess Willard
Are they dancing? Or are they fighting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMJL36_oCs

Even against an old, inactive, washed up Jeffries its more of the same
Johnson clinches virtually every ten mississippi counts
And it still took fifteen rounds, dozens of cuts, to drop Jeffries
NO wonder, at that kind of pace, he wrestled him to death

HomicideHenry wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtuTIJS-7o

Look at the defense. Defense= 'glove blocking' & clinching

Very little action in this fight w/ Moran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWA5xjJ0-4

Hands down so low a Larry Holmes would knock his head off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMZQUCVrN6I

Gets knocked down by a 150 pound middleweight
Again, clinching, and glove blocking every ten seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8iq9FHFwx4

Literally lunges, charges, wrestles w/ Jess Willard
Are they dancing? Or are they fighting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMJL36_oCs

Even against an old, inactive, washed up Jeffries its more of the same
Johnson clinches virtually every ten mississippi counts
And it still took fifteen rounds, dozens of cuts, to drop Jeffries
NO wonder, at that kind of pace, he wrestled him to death

Holmes didn't hold his hands low? . . .you must have seen much Holmes footage.
It makes ZERO sense to hold your hands high to your face wearing 5 ounce horsehair gloves, as a fighter one would think you'd understand that.

Johnson shows wonderful boxing vs Ketchel and Willard, throwing combinations (vs Jess), jolting double jabs and counters vs Ketchel. And vs Jefferies it's not just straight clinching, he also is throwing short punches on the inside and using the uppercut. He also counters Jim anytime Jeff threw a punch. The guy was basically a larger version of Jones Jr but better schooled . . .he'd put guys in a shell due to his quickness and countering ability (he could also feint an opponent into knots)

Johnson was respected by all who saw him as one of the greatest to ever fight through the era of Ali. But Rufus watches some old hand-cranked film and finds the conspirarcy! The guy just sucked! Well done!

To make the argument simpler than it really is…

Johnson had a great defence. If it were marks out of 10 he’d get a 10 (or at least a 9). Guys like this…Pep, Whittaker, Benny Leonard, Gans… can be beaten but they are never easily beaten. They will always make it close.

So, yes, win, lose or draw, Holmes would struggle in this fight, as would anyone else.

It's back to the training methods scenario for me, give Johnson up to date training facilities and he would have been outstaning I'm sure. Stick Holmes back into Johson's era and he may not have even had a jab of any worth. Holmes wins if they stick to their eras, if Johnson had all of the latest trainers etc, who knows how devastating he would have been.
Of course getting Jack to listen to anybody but himself may have posed a problem

Roars Like Me wrote:It's back to the training methods scenario for me

What do boxers do now that they haven't for decades?

Heavy bag, roadwork, sparring, it's the same stuff.

Scottrf wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote:It's back to the training methods scenario for me

What do boxers do now that they haven't for decades?

Heavy bag, roadwork, sparring, it's the same stuff.

I'm thinking more of a fitness level, he gassed quite a lot and I'm absolutely sure a good trainer would stop him running at people in that comedy Charlie Chaplin boxing fashion.
As soon as he gassed his technique was awful.

You see plenty of boxers gas now after a few rounds. There were boxing matches scheduled for 70 rounds in the past. 'Modern training methods' are a myth as far as I'm concerned in relation to boxing. That 'Charlie Chaplin style' you reference is I believe due to the filming technology.

Ezzard wrote:To make the argument simpler than it really is…

Johnson had a great defence. If it were marks out of 10 he’d get a 10 (or at least a 9). Guys like this…Pep, Whittaker, Benny Leonard, Gans… can be beaten but they are never easily beaten. They will always make it close.

So, yes, win, lose or draw, Holmes would struggle in this fight, as would anyone else.

HomicideHenry wrote:Holmes kicks Johnson's ass imho, Johnson is one of the more overated HW's I have ever seen, and I base this on the fight films, Johnson was clinching every ten seconds, a Larry Holmes would impale him with his jab

< He was fighting 20+ round fights outdoors in the sun. Would you prefer he was bouncing around on his toes and jabbing? He would have been completely gassed by the 20th round.

Fighters from the past fought in a completely different state of mind. Mind you, these guys sometimes spent multiple rounds being knocked down ... multiple rounds ... it is difficult to compare fighters from these eras. One thing you should never do is totally discredit them.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:... One thing you should never do is totally discredit them.

One of the most intelligent statements I've seen in this forum.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:He would have had real trouble against Jack Johnson.

Do you agree with him?

Yes I agree. Infact he would have lost to him