BoxRec

Bit young to remember the build up etc to the fight so I am interested to know what was the general consensus to the fight.

Remember, Ali was fairly impressive in his previous bout vs Spinks and its not as if Ali hadn't "done the impossible before". Where there stories about his medical condition(s) leaking out before the contest? Who was the betting favourite?

Any feedback would be welcome.

From what I can remember the majority of the boxing press were dead against Ali vs Holmes... the thing is that Ali had deteriorated markedly as a fighter since the Foreman and 3rd Frazier fight and even as early as '78 there were some comments over his general health, with a number of people commenting about him sometimes slurring his speech.
Ali's doctor Ferdie Patcheco fell out with Ali after the Norton fight when he tried to force Ali to retire, saying he was suffering from kidney damage.
Ali being Ali saw all the opposition to him fighting Holmes as a challenge... I have a number of interviews of him at the time and in one when he is asked why he wants to fight Holmes he says 'cause people say i can't do it... and i want to do things that people say i can't do....' in these interviews sometimes Ali seems to be just like his old self but at other times his voice sounds thick and nasely... like he's got a cold.... but if you compare him in interviews in 1980 or even '78 with interviews in early 70's or in 60s it's clear that something is not quite right.
Angelo Dundee has since said that he realised that Ali had some problem with his voice but thought it was a problem caused by catching punches on the throat.
Anyway when Ali started training for Holmes he was very heavy at about 260.... but then as the fight drew near people realised he'd lost a lot of weight... by the fight time he was 217.... and looked like the Ali of the early 70s..... people who had become used to seeing the overweight retired Ali were genuinely shocked by his transformation and some started to believe that perhaps he really could turn back time and beat Holmes.... I remember by father saying as Ali got in the ring that he looked really fit.
But ofcourse Ali had lost all the weight due to a damn quack who had given him diet pills and in reality Ali was having trouble just staying awake when he walked in to the ring to fight Holmes.......... the fight was a tragic traversty.
If Ali's health had not been 100% before the Holmes fight the beating he took certainly did not do him any good.
Ali was I think the greatest ever Heavyweight champ and one of the things that made him so great was his will which took him to victories when he was past his best, but against Holmes and with some dumb doctors Ali pushed his body too far.......

Thanks Silkov thats what I was looking for, anyone else with a different perspective.

I've been trying to get hold of "the last hurrah" 2 tape video, feature Ali's final fight with Berbick and a tape of him training/talking prior to his final fight.

I heard Ali was a little better against Berbick mainly because he didn't train as such to lose weight but focused on sparring etc, although Berbick was not quarter the boxer of Holmes so its harder to judge.

Apparently for Ali's final fight he was grey (he was greying during the later championship days but dyed it regularly). Even though it sad, I still think its interesting.

I saw a "different strokes" repeat recently, the espisode was filmed in 1981 with Ali as a guest, you could tell a distinct slowing down of his speech then, but of course his illnesses were not announced untill 1984.

You can also notive a slur during his film "The greatest", which is a damn shame.

You can judge for yourself if you have ESPN Classic....

TUESDAY....DECEMBER 9....That's TODAY...9 PM and I believe they repeat it at Midnight...

My recollection (Haven't seen it since 1980) was that Ali looked terrible and should never have taken the fight...BUT...they gave Ali $9 million for the fight (far more than Holmes got)...which undoubtedly made it difficult for Ali to turn down (especially when he probably thought if he could make it close, he might just get another 'sentimental' decision)...

If memory serves, Ali did NOTHING in this fight...and, as an Ali fan, it was the one Ali fight that really left me depressed...as he really did NOTHING except catch punches...I don't recall Ali landing a single punch...

I'll be watching the ESPN Classic telecast this evening to see if the years have changed my memory of this (very disappointing) boxing match. I remember thinking before the fight that Ali had little chance...but I thought he would atleast win a few rounds...which he didn't... :( :(

When Ali fought Berbick he didn't use any medication to lose weight and came in at about 236 I think....... from what I remember Ali was only a shodow of his past self in the fight but was vastly better than he had been against Holmes.... for the first 5 or 6 rounds the fight was actually competitive with Ali landing enough scoring shots to make things interesting.... he really gave his all again in this fight, but there was no snap or power in his shots, and the speed was only a distant thing (although at times he was able to out speed the lumbering Berbick still) ....by the 6th round Berbick took over and was in control... but Ali never looked like getting stopped. Looking back it's pretty incredible that Ali was able to fight Berbick like he did, after all Berbick was no mug, he won a version of the world title from Pinklon Thomas a few years later and before he fought Ali he had become the first man to take Holmes the distance in a world title try. All in all another example of Ali's great courage and strength, even right at the end of his career.

that ali was allowed to get into the ring with holmes at that stage of his life was tragic...and silkov and sweet scientist here give you all you need to know about it. one thing even worse than the diet pills was also the use of laxatives to keep the weight down. his body was probably more damaged than his head at that time and had he fought a strong charging infighter liker the young frazier ... rather than the jab jab and straight right hand style of holmes....well, it's hard to speculate what might have happened.

this isn't to diminish the damage holmes DID do....actually it's a testament to his skill that he was able to easily win the fight without having to make it a brawl.

Yeah, I watched it again last Tuesday (on ESPN classic)...

I really don't know why (fight junkie)...

It's just as sad as it was 23 years ago...one thing I thought about while watching it though...I recall an interview with Larry Holmes, years after the fight, with Larry saying he 'took it easy on him'...

Didn't look like it to me...

Sweet Scientist wrote:Yeah, I watched it again last Tuesday (on ESPN classic)...

I really don't know why (fight junkie)...

It's just as sad as it was 23 years ago...one thing I thought about while watching it though...I recall an interview with Larry Holmes, years after the fight, with Larry saying he 'took it easy on him'...

Didn't look like it to me...

Larry asked the late Richard Green to stop the fight.

Holmes could have Ko'd Ali within 2 rounds.

knockout artist wrote:

Sweet Scientist wrote:Yeah, I watched it again last Tuesday (on ESPN classic)...

I really don't know why (fight junkie)...

It's just as sad as it was 23 years ago...one thing I thought about while watching it though...I recall an interview with Larry Holmes, years after the fight, with Larry saying he 'took it easy on him'...

Didn't look like it to me...

Larry asked the late Richard Green to stop the fight.

Holmes could have Ko'd Ali within 2 rounds.

I agree, larry took it easy on his idol and mentor.

Ali was in no state to fight holmes, and what followed was one of the most pathetic sights in heavyweight boxing.

knockout artist wrote: Holmes could have Ko'd Ali within 2 rounds.

If he could have, he WOULD have...Holmes was trying to get out from Ali's 'shadow' and an impressive early knockout would have made Larry look great...

One of the biggest reasons Ali has the medical problems he has today is BECAUSE Holmes and others COULDN'T knock him out early...he took too many punches at the end of his career. The Holmes & Berbick fights were damaging to Ali's health... :(

One of the worst stories I ve read about the Ali vs Holmes fight is that the day after the fight Ali visited Don King in his office and asked for his money (supposed to be about 2 or 3million pound) ....King didn't want to pay at first but Ali insisted, so King got some money out of his safe threw it onto the table and then got Ali to sign something saying that he'd been paid. When Ali took the money and it was counted he found out that King had given him just three hundred thousand pounds!.
Only in America!

Sweet Scientist wrote:

knockout artist wrote: Holmes could have Ko'd Ali within 2 rounds.

If he could have, he WOULD have...Holmes was trying to get out from Ali's 'shadow' and an impressive early knockout would have made Larry look great...

One of the biggest reasons Ali has the medical problems he has today is BECAUSE Holmes and others COULDN'T knock him out early...he took too many punches at the end of his career. The Holmes & Berbick fights were damaging to Ali's health... :(

Come on man, Holmes fought the whole fight in first gear, he could have KO'd Ali at any time, watch the tape.

IMO Holmes would have KO'd the Ali that fought Spinks twice.

It is well known that from the mid 70's Holmes easily handled Ali in sparring and was sent away on several occassions.

Ali new he couldnt win and came back for money.

Holmes knew he could KO Ali, but would have enraged the fans by doing so.

It would have been better for Boxing had Holmes just KO'd him.

Consider this.

When Ali came back to fight Frazier, he had two warm ups against Quarry and Bonavena.

For Holmes he had no warm ups.

Why, because there was not a HW in the top 30 he could beat.

He was gone.

As part of his illusion Ali dyed his grey hair black for the Holmes fight.

He had no chance of winning, and most boxing people knew it at the time.
It was the "Ali fans" who thought he could do it, but then if he'd said he could fly to the moon they'd have believed that to.

I remember taking bets off people at school who were convinced Ali could do it one more time, not that it made made feel any better when the inevitable happened.
Anyone who'd seen Holmes fight knew there was just no way the older Ali could beat him - it was a disaster and a fight I've never watched again.
But Holmes did show mercy that night, though a quick knockout would've probably done Ali a favour looking back.

The Berbick farce was the pits too - the only good thing about that was the Black Muslims giving Don King an almighty kicking for trying to rip off Ali one last time.

I ve never watched the fight in 20 years, but unfortunately my memory of it is still sharp and to be honest I don't think Holmes held back that much.... especially in the later rounds Holmes was really letting punches fly to Ali's head and body.... only Ali's enormous courage and great chin held him up. I don't hold it against Holmes as he was really in a no win situation.... but I really believe that he tried to ko Ali.... and probably because he didn't want to give him a prolonged beating.
I ve read that before the fight a number of Alis freinds who were against the fight approached Holmes and asked him to finish Ali off quickly.... I believe this is what he tried to do.... but Ali just kept laying on the ropes and in the corners and taking shots, but not going down.
Even in his last fight with Berbick Ali's chin held up against Berbicks punches. Ofcourse Ali's great strength in his later years (his durability and strength) were ultimately his undoing.
In many ways this is why I fear for the future of Evander Holifeild.... especially if he keeps fighting.

knockout artist wrote: Holmes knew he could KO Ali, but would have enraged the fans by doing so.

Since when does a heavyweight champion hold back to avoid "enraging the fans"? This doesn't make sense.

The one thing Ali had left was the ability to take a punch. And he took punch after punch after punch after punch in that fight. You say "watch the tape"? I did watch the tape...if anything, Holmes fought a bit over-cautiously the first few rounds, maybe he wanted to be sure Ali had nothing left...towards the end of the fight, the punishment was brutal, especially that uppercut in the 8th or 9th...not the kind of punch you throw when you're 'taking it easy' if you ask me...Angelo Dundee stopped the fight because he knew Ali was getting hammered, and would needlessly keep getting hammered through 15 rounds...Ali could take a punch, man!!!

Ali had probably the best chin and biggest heart of any world Heavyweight champ.

Talking of the Ali-Homes fight one of the many many things that bothers me about the whole sorry affair is this.

As we all know Dr Ferdie Pacheco had left the Ali camp a few years before hand because "Ali has nothing left to prove, and if he continues fighting he will damage his health further" or words to that effect. Dr Ferdie Pacheco has also since claimed that he informed Angelo Dundee of his fears for Ali's health but got no responce from Ali's long time trainer.

So can anyone give me the answer to the following-

(1) Did Dr Pacheco air his concerns to the Boxing media at the time or just in interviews years after the event?

(2) If Dr Pacheco did indeed inform Dundee of his fears why did Dundee continue to work in Ali's corner??????? In interviews the only answer I've sen Dundee give to this question was along the lines of "If you start with a guy, you finish with a guy". Sorry no disrespect to Mr Dundee but thats just not a strong enough argument for me.

Everyone could see Ali was shot and that his voice wasn't the same as it was a few years earlier. Dundee responce to this was "I'd thought he had took a shot to the throat". Sorry Mr Dundee again not good enough.

Maybe he thought he could help Ali more if he was in his corner, rather than leaving and some hanger one from the Ali camp taking over? I just don't know.

Sorry rant over guys, but this matter has bugged me for years.

As far as I can remember, after Ali'S 3RD match with Norton Pacheco done xrays of Ali showing that he had suffered kidney damage.... he sent copies of the xrays to Ali, Ali's manager and Dundee (I think, I'm not 100% on whether he sent one to Dundee) ...he also put a letter in with the Xrays in which he said basically that Ali should quit fighting. I think that the result of this was that Pacheco didn't recieve any reply from Ali or anyone else and he then resigned as Ali's doctor.
At the end of the day you have to admit that Ali was as responsible as anyone else for him continuing fighting.... he loved it, it was his life and I really don't think that anyone ever forced him to fight. One of the things about him was that he was a risk taker.... (most fighters are) but more than most fighters he had a career of beating the odds, doing things he shouldn't do and succeeding, so he really believed he could beat Holmes... despite the fact that he must have been aware of his physical decline. I have an interview of Ali before the Holmes fight and he says something like 'if people say I can't do something, then that's what I'm going to do!'.
I do believe too that Dundee probably thought that he could help Ali more by sticking with him than leaving him. After all it was Dundee who stopped the Norton fight, while Blundini Brown was shouting 'just one more round! just one more round!' if it had been just Brown in charge in the corner the consequences don't bear thinking about.... I think Ali might have been killed in that fight..... because he wouldn't have allowed himself to be knocked out.
One thing that bothers me is why Dundee didn't notice how Ali was losing the weight for the Holmes fight, and why he didn't see that by fight time Ali was sick through the tablets and dehydraytion. I think Dundee was lax in how he trained Ali.... Ali was the boss, but Dundee should have been more aware of what was going on... in that area he was negligent.... I think an important job of all trainers is to protect their fighters from themselves..... Dundee didn't do that with Ali.

silkov wrote:As far as I can remember, after Ali'S 3RD match with Norton Pacheco done xrays of Ali showing that he had suffered kidney damage.... he sent copies of the xrays to Ali, Ali's manager and Dundee (I think, I'm not 100% on whether he sent one to Dundee) ...he also put a letter in with the Xrays in which he said basically that Ali should quit fighting. I think that the result of this was that Pacheco didn't recieve any reply from Ali or anyone else and he then resigned as Ali's doctor.
At the end of the day you have to admit that Ali was as responsible as anyone else for him continuing fighting.... he loved it, it was his life and I really don't think that anyone ever forced him to fight. One of the things about him was that he was a risk taker.... (most fighters are) but more than most fighters he had a career of beating the odds, doing things he shouldn't do and succeeding, so he really believed he could beat Holmes... despite the fact that he must have been aware of his physical decline. I have an interview of Ali before the Holmes fight and he says something like 'if people say I can't do something, then that's what I'm going to do!'.
I do believe too that Dundee probably thought that he could help Ali more by sticking with him than leaving him. After all it was Dundee who stopped the Norton fight, while Blundini Brown was shouting 'just one more round! just one more round!' if it had been just Brown in charge in the corner the consequences don't bear thinking about.... I think Ali might have been killed in that fight..... because he wouldn't have allowed himself to be knocked out.
One thing that bothers me is why Dundee didn't notice how Ali was losing the weight for the Holmes fight, and why he didn't see that by fight time Ali was sick through the tablets and dehydraytion. I think Dundee was lax in how he trained Ali.... Ali was the boss, but Dundee should have been more aware of what was going on... in that area he was negligent.... I think an important job of all trainers is to protect their fighters from themselves..... Dundee didn't do that with Ali.

Some good points there Silkov, I think I may have that interview with Ali as well where he says "If people say I can't do something I will go and do it". Is that the one were he is driving a bus? I think in that interview he also has a moustache, I seem to recall a rumor that was to cover a cut from sparring, (something tell me it was caused by Jeff Simms but I'm maybe wrong). What I do recall of that interview was of Ali slurring his words at times in the same way Holyfield does today in fact.

Yes, that's the interview... the 'bus interview' ...I think it was Sims who cut Ali's top lip during sparring. In the interview Ali's determination to fight Holmes is very clear.... it makes me wonder in a way whether part of Ali's motivation was to prove that he was 'ok'. Imagine the mental pain of being as great an athlete as Ali was and having to face the reality that not only was his athletic life coming to an end but his actual health was not how it should be. As I ve grown older myself i ve come to realise just how hard it must be for boxers in their thirties to recognise that they nolonger have it and that they must give up probably the most important thing in their lives.
Unfortunately I also agree with the parallel between the speech of Ali of the early 80s and Holifield today.... it seems like almost an open secret in Boxing that Holifield has slurred speech, yet he's still allowed to go on and on. Ive seen him in some interviews recently where he sounds ok, but that was the case with Ali in the early 80s. In Some interviews I ve seen of him Holifeild has been barely understandable..... his speech was very garbled after the Toney fight... and more worrying for me was that his thinking seemed to be slow and hesitant. Yet he still says he will fight on, and no one seems willing to stop him. If the defeat by Toney hasn't pursuaded Evander to retire I fear what it will take for him to quit..... imagine if he went up against big punching Vitali Klitchenko?.... it doesn't bear thinking about. I fear if he's not stopped Evander will end up in a worse state than Ali. At least Ali has all his thought proccesses still.

On a simular theme it's been confirmed that Riddick Bowe will make a comeback next year!..... can you believe it?...... hate to be depressing but it's things like this that give boxing a bad name.

silkov wrote:On a simular theme it's been confirmed that Riddick Bowe will make a comeback next year!..... can you believe it?...... hate to be depressing but it's things like this that give boxing a bad name.

Yes I've heard this sad news to. Part of me thinks it's not my place to tell a man who is only a couple of years older than myself to retire. But Boxing unlike most other sports (if you class Boxing as a sport) is to dangerous to stay in for too long. Sadly Bowe like an endless list of fighters has not adjusted to life after the ring. His life at the moment seems to mirror Frank Brunos in many ways, marraige break ups, health concerns, brushes with the law and failed post ring careers etc.

It's a crime that all the time fighters are being trained to fight, their not also being taught how to deal with life when their fighting days are over, eg looking after your money and training for another career etc. I hear that Gerry Cooneys F.I.S.T. organisation does some good work as does the UK's Mickey Cantwell, but more needs to be done by managers, promoters, governing bodies and Boxing Commisions but mostly by the fighters themselves.

In my opinion the problem with fighters is mostly an identity issue, for 10. 20. 30 years they eat sleep and breath Boxing, they see themselves as fighters, thats what they are. Then when their about 35ish it's all taken away from them. Their life structure has gone, they are fighters without a fight to train for, no road work, sparring, bagwork, making weight etc etc etc. This leaves a huge hole in thier lives which many never manage to truely fill. Many fighters come from nothing then become someone then feel they have become nothing again.

In many ways fighters remind me of people I know who have served in the armed forces for long periods of time. When they leave they are like fish out of water without the structure of Army life. They still see themselves as soldiers but are in civilian street, many never really adjust just like Boxers. How many ex-soldiers have you met who may have seen action and were highly trained soldiers who are now working as doorman or security guards on minimum wages, just like many ex-Boxers.

Didn't he call himself "Dark Gable" after growing his moustache?

(what a terrible pun!)