BoxRec

Sometimes a guy gets in the ring and jsut does everything wrong and lsoes a fight that was possibly winnable...

Hearns v Hagler always stands out

Nunn v Toney

Benn v Watson & Eubank (I)

The one that sticks out for me is Honeyghan v Starling.

Starling was not the sort to get stopped (unless hit with a cheap one after the bell!).

Marlon was shrewd, crafty, tight in defence and when you did get through he had the whiskers to take what was coming. BUT Starling was often work-shy and prone to taking rounds off.

Lloyd needed to go into that fight like he did Maurice Blocker. Expecting a hard long distance fight, take the rounds and put them in the bank. Starling would land a high percentage of his shots but by sheer hard work he could be beaten.

Instead Lloyd seemed caught up in his own KO hype and just threw bomb after bomb at Starling's guard whilst taking a never ending array of counters.

It should have been a close fight but Honeyghan did everything wrong.

What should Nunn have done differently? I think that was more about what Toney did. He was relentless to the body that night.

Holyfield in the first fight vs Bowe- He went to war on the inside with a bigger and better in fighter.

Hagler vs Duran- Roberto wasn't in the best of shape and was sucking wind by the 6th round. Marvin froze a bit in his first big fight and was intimidated by his opponent. I know that laser right hand counter was no picnic, but if Hagler pressed like he did in the last 3 rounds it would have been a much easier night and possibly a stoppage.

And before someone mentions Leonard in Montreal, he had no choice in the matter.

good call on Honeygan

poor call on Nunn Toney though, IMO. there was nothing/ very little to do with strategy, in Nunn's defeat (assuming that is what you are saying)... Nunn boxed the best and smartest fight he could, moving and not getting involved, the way he should have done.

then around round 8-9 two things happened, IMO. (1) his poor stamina/lack of prep/ weightdraining caught up with him, and (2) Toney's good pressure also got to him.

if you're saying he showed poor strategy to start exchanging with Toney in the later rounds, I'd suggest he had little choice as by the 10th he was running on fumes, and (a) couldn't move nearly as much and (b) was faced with the option of either fight back or get ran out of the ring

personally i see/saw nothing of poor strategy in that loss for Nunn, I just see a guy without great work habits, maybe complacent, probably a little ringrusty and definitely weightdrained, going in against a guy who would end up being seen as a better fighter in the eyes of history, a guy who had been very active with a fight every 6 weeks/2 months since turning pro, and who was young and very, very hungry.

i really strongly disagree that the loss was down to poor strategy on the above grounds.

edit, ha, and as saad said, Toney's bodywork

Hagler against Leonard

You could argue anyone that brought it to MSM tried to slug it out with him, Lopez in particular.

Moorer deciding to flat foot it instead of getting on his bike against Foreman

Judah showing contempt and disgregard for Tsyzu's right hand despite it nearly landing 4-5 times before the fight ended

Khan running at Prescott, hands down by his sides, chin out

Holligan hooking with Chavez up close

Sam Horton electing to trade with Cello Renda

Oscar deciding to coast the last couple of rounds and not force the action against Trinidad

Nunn seemed to put an awful lot into those early rounds and was sitting down on his punches more than usual.

I also remember Angelo berating him for throughout the fight (not just the later rounds) for standing his ground.

I understand why you’re getting back at me on this because Toney forced the issue. He never looked to be in such good shape again for the rest of his career.

Not sure about Hagler-Duran. That Roberto was in better shape and a lot younger than the guy who beat Barkley. Agree that Hagler should have pressed more (so, perhaps yes, he picked the wrong strategy) but I wonder if it was perhaps a better result than people considered at the time. I’d also say that Duran fought a brilliant fight that night and exposed Hagler’s dislike for leading off. Leonard’s comeback against Howard was motivated by Duran’s showing (blueprint for defeating Marvin) in that fight.

Has anyone said Hagler vs Leonard yet? With Ezzard's provisos in mind, I still watch it & find myself shouting "FFS, what are you doing you bald-headed loon!" at the monitor.

Ezzard wrote:Nunn seemed to put an awful lot into those early rounds and was sitting down on his punches more than usual.

.

hmm, i guess maybe. i think he treated Toney's challenge with a degree of contempt, and in the first 2-3 rounds maybe, yes, he was exchanging somewhat and i think was surprised by both Toney's ability to avoid shots, and his ability to fire back when under pressure.

i wouldn't say he was sitting down on his shots that much, myself, he looked to me as though he was throwing his usual collection of nasty flappy swinging armpunches for the most part, I thought.

not meaning to be pedantic, ezz, and i do agree that after the first 2-3 rounds and some, ahem, exhortation from Dundee, he returned to more of a moving gameplan. i just think by far the most important part of that was caused by Toney's excellence

Rosario going all out to try and stop Ramirez in their 2nd fight, i don't know what exactly, but Chapo made some kind of feck-up that night.

here's one- Chicanito Gonzalez electing not to use his boxing skills at all in the first fight vs Carbajal, playing into the hands of Carbajal's sit-down-and-wing-them powerpunching style. with Chicanito boxing a little more Carbajal got shown up for the slightly limited mini-slugger he was

ummmm

Gatti, just, generally, Gatti.

Counter-puncher wrote:
Gatti, just, generally, Gatti.

/thread.

I predicted Starling would KO Honeyghan, after taking everything the latter could throw at him, but looking back at that fight, Starling pretty much dominated from the opening bell. Starling just wasen't going to get lazy in a fight like that.

Strange the way that fight seemed to break Honeyghan. Coming in he has total confidence in his ability and punching power, afterwards he can't beat a top 10 contender and get's demolished by china chinned Mark Breland a year later.

I think Lloyd's early wins over Hatcher and Bumphus (who were really Jr Welters) plus the support from Tyson and Hagler may have over-inflated Lloyd in his own mind.

Lloyd did nothing in that fight to help himself. Everything he did was perfect for Starling's style.

There's a great piece (thread) over on the British Forum that's worth a read.

George Foreman vs Ali is always case numero uno for me. Just swing wide arm punches and try to KO early a guy who has never been KO'd . . .

dempseyfire wrote:George Foreman vs Ali is always case numero uno for me. Just swing wide arm punches and try to KO early a guy who has never been KO'd . . .

Yes, seems that way now, Demps but...

At the time many thought that was all George had to do.

worst strategies- Herol Graham trying to set his feet and turn puncher(ish) against Kalumbay

Probably needs to go in a "worst idea someone's ever had in a fight" thread rather than "...worst strategies" but Nate Galaxxxxxy Warrior Campbell trying to prove to Robbie Peden that Campbell could take his left hook was a phenomenally bad idea.

Counter-puncher wrote:worst strategies- Herol Graham trying to set his feet and turn puncher(ish) against Kalumbay

Herol trying to knock out Julian Jackson (Granted, he was one-eyed and the other didn't look too clever either).

Ezzard wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:George Foreman vs Ali is always case numero uno for me. Just swing wide arm punches and try to KO early a guy who has never been KO'd . . .

Yes, seems that way now, Demps but...

At the time many thought that was all George had to do.

And it's all he was capable of doing.

Ezzard wrote:Nunn seemed to put an awful lot into those early rounds and was sitting down on his punches more than usual.

I also remember Angelo berating him for throughout the fight (not just the later rounds) for standing his ground.

I understand why you’re getting back at me on this because Toney forced the issue. He never looked to be in such good shape again for the rest of his career.

Not sure about Hagler-Duran. That Roberto was in better shape and a lot younger than the guy who beat Barkley. Agree that Hagler should have pressed more (so, perhaps yes, he picked the wrong strategy) but I wonder if it was perhaps a better result than people considered at the time. I’d also say that Duran fought a brilliant fight that night and exposed Hagler’s dislike for leading off. Leonard’s comeback against Howard was motivated by Duran’s showing (blueprint for defeating Marvin) in that fight.

Duran was in way better condition against Barkley. He could have never maintained that pace against Marvin. I didn't find the fight to be as close as the judges and all in all it was a pretty ho-hum affair. The 12th round was vintage Duran though.

Agree that it was fight 10-5 (as I seem to remember). Roberto was a hell of a lot younger though.

Ezzard wrote:Agree that it was fight 10-5 (as I seem to remember). Roberto was a hell of a lot younger though.

Obviously there is no argument there. But he visibly tired early in the fight. I haven't watched it in a long time. But I recall his hands down and breathing out of his mouth in the 5th or 6th round.

Ezzard wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:George Foreman vs Ali is always case numero uno for me. Just swing wide arm punches and try to KO early a guy who has never been KO'd . . .

Yes, seems that way now, Demps but...

At the time many thought that was all George had to do.

Many thought Tyson would go in and KO Holyfield in a round as well. Still doesn't make those opinions well founded.

Foreman showed a great left jab vs Norton and Frazier and that had been a major part of his success until that point. He completly threw the jab out the window in Zaire . .

It was talked a bit in the aftermath as I recall, but hasn't stood the test of time in discussion, so here's a blast from the past...

De La Hoya vs Mosley (Fight I).

dempseyfire wrote:Foreman showed a great left jab vs Norton and Frazier and that had been a major part of his success until that point. He completly threw the jab out the window in Zaire . .

You are correct that George had an excellent jab. However, Ali quickly took control of the fight and had George flusterred in the 1st round. I'm sure George's gameplan was to use the jab, but Ali took that away almost from the opening bell by hitting him almost before George was in range. By about the half way point of round 1 George almost looked desperate and that was probably because he never had anyone manhandle him in that manner.

The fight clearly showed that George never really developed as much as he should have because he was matched so cautiously leading up to his title fight. Had he been matched with a few world class boxers and counterpunchers rather than the succession of club fighters he did fight prior to Frazier, he may have been a little better prepared for someone like Ali. Instead, he was protected and carefully matched and he never really learned how to fight someone who didn't stand in front of him.

Frazier and Norton were certainly exceptionally skilled fighters, but neither were the hardest guys in the world to hit and weren't exactly well know for being able to adapt their game plans.

hatton v pacquio :!:

Floyd Patterson in both his fights against Sonny Liston.
I don't think Patterson could beat Liston anyway, but taking the fight to him and lunging in like he did was exactly what Liston wanted him to do. He definitely should have tried to stick and move to keep out of Liston's range while not punching. That strategy wasn't part of Patterson's repertoire, though, so it wouldn't be an easy adjustment to make, especially with Liston's big reach advantage to go with his size advantage.

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Foreman showed a great left jab vs Norton and Frazier and that had been a major part of his success until that point. He completly threw the jab out the window in Zaire . .

You are correct that George had an excellent jab. However, Ali quickly took control of the fight and had George flusterred in the 1st round. I'm sure George's gameplan was to use the jab, but Ali took that away almost from the opening bell by hitting him almost before George was in range. By about the half way point of round 1 George almost looked desperate and that was probably because he never had anyone manhandle him in that manner.

The fight clearly showed that George never really developed as much as he should have because he was matched so cautiously leading up to his title fight. Had he been matched with a few world class boxers and counterpunchers rather than the succession of club fighters he did fight prior to Frazier, he may have been a little better prepared for someone like Ali. Instead, he was protected and carefully matched and he never really learned how to fight someone who didn't stand in front of him.

Frazier and Norton were certainly exceptionally skilled fighters, but neither were the hardest guys in the world to hit and weren't exactly well know for being able to adapt their game plans.

As usual in regards to Foreman's first career, a big, steaming pile of horseshit.