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As in, who was more determined, more capable of taking massive punishment --- Ali, or Frazier?

Of course, its a matter of opinion.

I do feel Ali (yes we all know about his famoius wins and dramatic fights), however couple that with his 'sparring exploits', longevity and success, I believe he surpasses Frazier in this regard.

Joe could take a phenomenal amount of punishment, too, I can probably venture that his grinning during his fights was actually genuine, however by the same token Foreman was able to blast him out, granted only him.

Both could absorb frightening amounts, I tend to go with Ali......just and only just.

bengulnaci1 wrote:Of course, its a matter of opinion.

I do feel Ali (yes we all know about his famoius wins and dramatic fights), however couple that with his 'sparring exploits', longevity and success, I believe he surpasses Frazier in this regard.

Joe could take a phenomenal amount of punishment, too, I can probably venture that his grinning during his fights was actually genuine, however by the same token Foreman was able to blast him out, granted only him.

Both could absorb frightening amounts, I tend to go with Ali......just and only just.

Ever notice that Joe kept getting up after taking Foreman's best shots?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I am guessing you voted for Frazier?

It's hard to gauge, but I have to go with Ali.

He just had more heart and determination than Joe (although Joe had tremendous heart too).

I believe that Ali was spiritually and mentally stronger and this translated over to his physical make up allowing him to look within himself and pull through the tough times.

Also, Ali had much greater longevity which I consider to be a form of toughness.

I had to go with Ali by a hair. In truth though they have equally tough chins, but the way Frazier fought meant he got hit a lot more than Ali did and so his chin was tested a lot more than Ali's. That being said Ali almost never got seriously hurt, I know he was dropped and rocked a couple of times throughout his career, but he was always kept coming and was never run over like Joe was in the 1st Foreman fight. So it's a vote for Ali from me

bengulnaci1 wrote:I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I am guessing you voted for Frazier?

I find it disturbing that you are disturbed.

Damn right I voted for Frazier.

His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

yancey wrote:His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

Not a particurlarly convincing arguement anyway you slice it.

However that's your opinion and thats good enough for you, obviously.

bengulnaci1 wrote:

yancey wrote:His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

Not a particurlarly convincing arguement anyway you slice it.

However that's your opinion and thats good enough for you, obviously.

You need to work on your spelling.

Constructive, thanks!

Ali.

yancey wrote:

bengulnaci1 wrote:I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I am guessing you voted for Frazier?

I find it disturbing that you are disturbed.

Damn right I voted for Frazier.

His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

I consider this core to the debate. While I feel Ali had a sturider chin for one big shot, he also had many manoeuvres at his disposal. Rolling with shots, bending, holding, leaning --- no one will ever convince me he could've done any better against Foreman than Frazier did in his first fight if he'd taken the same clean, undiluted shots Frazier weathered, & maybe Ali might even have done worse (not getting up six times).

Frazier had to absorb massive punishment, for the most part, head-on. I give him the edge as a result.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:

bengulnaci1 wrote:I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I am guessing you voted for Frazier?

I find it disturbing that you are disturbed.

Damn right I voted for Frazier.

His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

I consider this core to the debate. While I feel Ali had a sturider chin for one big shot, he also had many manoeuvres at his disposal. Rolling with shots, bending, holding, leaning --- no one will ever convince me he could've done any better against Foreman than Frazier did in his first fight if he'd taken the same clean, undiluted shots Frazier weathered, & maybe Ali might even have done worse (not getting up six times).

Frazier had to absorb massive punishment, for the most part, head-on. I give him the edge as a result.

The right uppercut that Foreman put on Frazier for the second knockdown in '73 was one of the most powerful punches I've ever seen.

I literally cringed when I saw that punch for the first time. The fight was over at that point, in reality.

Very, very few fighters could have gotten up six times like Frazier did that night, let alone the second knockdown.

I am not convinced the argument that Frazier's 'style' is evidence enough.

The left hook that put Ali down in the 15th, given the punishment taken and fatigue, was just as impressive as anything Frazier had to absorb.

Ali got up, when many, many others wouldn't / couldn't have. The punishment he took against Norton, Spinks, Foreman et al, you can say that all his skills minimised the damage, but did it?

I believe his skills kept him in fights, giving him the chance to survive or potentially win, despite taking heavy, heavy punishment. Longer fights, under these circumstances, obviously equate to tremendous punishment.

If anything, Ali's fights, if he did not win them, went the distance (bar Holmes). On each occasion he took frightful punishment but his heart and will forced him to suck it up and keep going.

I genuinely believe his style, whilst more universally accepted as more 'slick', in his latter career, dictated that Ali HAD to absorb punishment as he did not have Frazier's aggression or power, with one shot.

He had to take his licks and out-will them.

Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

You can also throw in there all Ali's 'gym wars' which were almost daily.

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

11 rounds?

Yeah, right.

yancey wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

11 rounds?

Yeah, right.

My mistake, 10 rounds.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

There is info on Boxrec and many other sites. Google it

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bionorton1.htm

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:

yancey wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

11 rounds?

Yeah, right.

My mistake, 10 rounds.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

There is info on Boxrec and many other sites. Google it

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bionorton1.htm

That is okay, everyone makes mistakes.

btw, I took your advice and googled "when did Ali REALLY break his jaw against Norton?"

An interview with Ken Norton came up in which he said Ali's jaw was broken in round 12.

Between the spin put out by Ali's camp which was then trumpeted by the lamestream media versus what Norton thinks....

I tend to think Norton is probably closer to the truth.

yancey wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:

yancey wrote:
11 rounds?

Yeah, right.

My mistake, 10 rounds.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

There is info on Boxrec and many other sites. Google it

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bionorton1.htm

That is okay, everyone makes mistakes.

btw, I took your advice and googled "when did Ali REALLY break his jaw against Norton?"

An interview with Ken Norton came up in which he said Ali's jaw was broken in round 12.

Between the spin put out by Ali's camp which was then trumpeted by the lamestream media versus what Norton thinks....

I tend to think Norton is probably closer to the truth.

Naturally. It strengthens slightly your weak arguement.

Sugar, it is just a myth Alis jaw was broken in the first round or two. It may be true, but the evidence is not there, frankly, & given Alis activity levels in some of the later rounds, Id not be surprised if it happened late.

Giancarlo wrote:

yancey wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote: My mistake, 10 rounds.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

There is info on Boxrec and many other sites. Google it

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bionorton1.htm

That is okay, everyone makes mistakes.

btw, I took your advice and googled "when did Ali REALLY break his jaw against Norton?"

An interview with Ken Norton came up in which he said Ali's jaw was broken in round 12.

Between the spin put out by Ali's camp which was then trumpeted by the lamestream media versus what Norton thinks....

I tend to think Norton is probably closer to the truth.

Naturally. It strengthens slightly your weak arguement.

I tend to believe Ali as he is the one who can feel the pain and he is the one who would be able to tell that his jaw feels different.


How would Norton know when he broke Ali's jaw? Does he have x ray vision? :??

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:It's hard to gauge, but I have to go with Ali.

He just had more heart and determination than Joe (although Joe had tremendous heart too).

I believe that Ali was spiritually and mentally stronger and this translated over to his physical make up allowing him to look within himself and pull through the tough times.

Also, Ali had much greater longevity which I consider to be a form of toughness.

How is it possible to have more heart & determination than Joe Frazier?

Joe would never stop coming, whatever state he was in; however bad the circumstances were.

Foreman was bouncing him around the ring like a basketball & he kept getting up. In the 3rd Ali fight, both men were out on their feet & Frazier had the added handicap of being virtually blind & still he wanted to fight on; only the excellent corner work of Eddie Futch saved Joe from himself.

Ali's circumstances are somewhat different, but he had heart & determination in equal measure.

I really think this question is a fence sitter's dream as you cannot separate them IMHO.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.