BoxRec

If Floyd Patterson hit Muhammad Ali with the exact same punch that he kayoed Ingemar Johansson with in their second fight in 1960, would Ali have been down for the 10 count?

Same power, timing, landing area, etc.

I say probably yes.

I think that was one of the most impressive punches I've ever seen.

Ingo was supposedly out for a full five minutes.

p.s. As a bonus, please discuss the effect of the same punch on George Chuvalo.

Ali got up after the hook from Frazier in the first fight, which was a very similar punch against a backing up opponent with their chin in the air, and that was after 15 hard rounds.

Probably wouldn't have KO'd Ali but certainly would have KO'd Frazier.

Giancarlo wrote:Probably wouldn't have KO'd Ali but certainly would have KO'd Frazier.

I think it very possibly puts Ali down for the count and Chuvalo down for sure. This assumes same landing area.

That punch had great timing and snap to it, plus it hit Ingo full on.

The Frazier left that put Ali on his butt was delivered by a very tired fighter plus Ali rode it a little.

IMOP we tend to forget that it was really two"leaping left hooks" that knocked out Johannson.
He was still hurt and groggy and his guard was down when he was hit by the second.

Brutu wrote:IMOP we tend to forget that it was really two"leaping left hooks" that knocked out Johannson.
He was still hurt and groggy and his guard was down when he was hit by the second.

Haven't seen that fight for a while, but I thought it was a single, leaping left hook that Ingo took full on. Maybe I'm wrong.

It was a testimony to Patterson the man that when the count was completed he went to check on Ingo, instead of running around acting like a fool. I remember that for sure.

The first knockdown is rarely seen because it usually only shown when the entire 5 round fight is replayed (rarely)on tv.
IMOP If only the second leaping left hook had landed flush like it did, it would have KO'd Johannson too.
But hard to tell if Johannson would have been starched as much by it tho.
That second punch sort of came at an angle like an uppercut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqor7PPpQhc

Just imagine if Henry Cooper had landed a a hard enough and well placed hook to have knocked Clay down at the 2 minute mark
of the fourth round and then followed it up with the actual hook that put him down at the closing seconds of their 1963 fight.
Would Ali's corner had to have picked him off the canvas and take him to the corner?
(although nowdays of course the boxing revisionist are trying to say the fourth round was actully
TOO long,and Ali had only maybe 2 seconds extra to rest(instead of the previously reported 2 minutes to rest) between the fourth and fifth rounds

Well if Clay would have cooperated and promised to "stay put just so" for Floyd to deliver....I reckon that shot could put some hurt on anyone. Frazier would be down and perhaps Clay as well. (That was his name at that time...no disrespect meant for you noobies). But he wouldn't agree to "pose" for the shot. Neither would Frazier.

BoxBuzz wrote:Well if Clay would have cooperated and promised to "stay put just so" for Floyd to deliver....I reckon that shot could put some hurt on anyone. Frazier would be down and perhaps Clay as well. (That was his name at that time...no disrespect meant for you noobies). But he wouldn't agree to "pose" for the shot. Neither would Frazier.

Agree, Ali and Frazier would not cooperate like Ingo did, but my question assumes that the victim is in the same posture as Johansson and take the full force like he did.

That being the case, I'm SURE Ali, Frazier, and damn near every heavy in history is down....I'm just wondering if they would be out.

I think that shot also puts Chuvalo down but not out.

Humour me, BB, I'm a little nuts but basically harmless.

Johansson was definitely hurt prior. He was down shortly before the KO shot, & was rocking & rolling in poor shape before he got caught. Still, the punch itself may've knocked out even a fresh Johansson. It was spectacular.

Would it have KO'd the 23-year-old Ali, rapidly entering the peak of his powers? Doubtful.

That punch by Patterson sort of reminds me of like as if he was playing the game of Jai Alai,
catching the ball in the scoop then swinging it back up with speed and force into Johansson's jaw.

Actually when I think about,and what makes that last punch so riveting,is that it reminds me of what
old fashioned warfare must have been like.Before guns and bombs,when men fought and vanquished their enemy
on foot face to face like before Medieval Days.
That almost primordial punch reminded me of Johansson being hit in the jaw by swinging a slightly curved wooden war club,
the type the like the Algonquin Indians used in tribal warfare and against the settlers.
That is what it must have looked like if u were in battle back then.

Brutu wrote:Actually when I think about,and what makes that last punch so riveting,is that it reminds me of what
old fashioned warfare must have been like.Before guns and bombs,when men fought and vanquished their enemy
on foot face to face like before Medieval Days.
That almost primordial punch reminded me of Johansson being hit in the jaw by swinging a slightly curved wooden war club,
the type the like the Algonquin Indians used in tribal warfare and against the settlers.
That is what it must have looked like if u were in battle back then.

Good descriptor.

So if a contemporary boxer could master this delivery, he could trademark the name "OozeE".

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Johansson was definitely hurt prior. He was down shortly before the KO shot, & was rocking & rolling in poor shape before he got caught. Still, the punch itself may've knocked out even a fresh Johansson. It was spectacular.

Would it have KO'd the 23-year-old Ali, rapidly entering the peak of his powers? Doubtful.

And certainly not Chuvalo. There was no putting this man down.

Jaywheel wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Johansson was definitely hurt prior. He was down shortly before the KO shot, & was rocking & rolling in poor shape before he got caught. Still, the punch itself may've knocked out even a fresh Johansson. It was spectacular.

Would it have KO'd the 23-year-old Ali, rapidly entering the peak of his powers? Doubtful.

And certainly not Chuvalo. There was no putting this man down.

I think that shot from Floyd, delivered with same power and timing and delivered full on to Chuvalo's chin with George leaning in a bit.....

puts him down.

George gets up by the count of 3.

Maybe it is partly that very scary twitching feet of Johansson, but that punch from Patterson really impresses me.

I'll give you a buckle of the knees. Maybe.

Jaywheel wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Johansson was definitely hurt prior. He was down shortly before the KO shot, & was rocking & rolling in poor shape before he got caught. Still, the punch itself may've knocked out even a fresh Johansson. It was spectacular.

Would it have KO'd the 23-year-old Ali, rapidly entering the peak of his powers? Doubtful.

And certainly not Chuvalo. There was no putting this man down.

Tell that to Bonavena who had him down twice...

It depends, if it is the pre exile Ali, there is a possibility he is KO'd, however, post exile Ali, especially when he was older, 73/74 era, I don't think so. Look at the shots he took in Manilla. Too much heart.

klompton wrote:

Jaywheel wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Johansson was definitely hurt prior. He was down shortly before the KO shot, & was rocking & rolling in poor shape before he got caught. Still, the punch itself may've knocked out even a fresh Johansson. It was spectacular.

Would it have KO'd the 23-year-old Ali, rapidly entering the peak of his powers? Doubtful.

And certainly not Chuvalo. There was no putting this man down.

Tell that to Bonavena who made him slip twice...

fixed.
He was out on his feet in the 4th. Ropes held him up.