BoxRec

Here is how I see it
1/ Marvin Hagler
Gotta rate this man at the top for his sheer dominance. Never looked close to losing (apart from Duran) from 80-87. Rd 3 KO of Hearns showed he could rumble with the best aswell. The decsision with SRL could have gone either way I think but Ray was dominated twice by Hearns and Hagler disposed of him in 3.

2/ Sugar Ray Leonard
Lightning fast fists and feet and a punch. I only rate him above Hearns because of what he did against Hagler which was a miracle considering his layoff.

3/ Thomas Hearns
Maybe should be ranked above Sugar Ray and would almost certainly be ranked no.1 if it wasn't for his chin. Dominated Leonard but got KOed late (his chin). Then beat him convincingly second time (I don't care what you say there is no way that fight was a draw). Thought he would be too quick for Hagler if he could take his shots and he massacred Roberto Duran. Jesus, if he could take a solid shot who knows what he could of accomplished.

4/ Roberto Duran
In terms of the welter-super middle battles Roberto had one glorious fight vs. Sugar Ray and had a good go at Hagler but was beaten comprehensively twice by Leonard and knocked silly against Hearns. In terms of his accomplishments at welter and above, bottom of the 4 but pound 4 pound he may have been right at the top of the pile.

Leonard is the only one of the four to have beaten the other three of course. But, pound for pound, Duran was the best for me. His natural division was lightweight, where he was unbeatable as world champion. The other three were all licked as world champs in their best divisions.

I agree with your 1-2-3-4 rankings, but I'd have to throw in some "buts". Hagler was, as you say, simply dominant. Leonard only agreed to fight him five years after the match should have and could have been made (late '82). I'm surprised more fans won't admit that Sugar Ray ducked Hagler, plain and simple. Makes it obvious that Hagler would have taken Leonard in '82.
Hearns was always limited by his physically fragility. He should not have fought Leonard at 147 - too thin for Tommy. Shoulda waited til 154, but Leonard was the big pretty boy star who could dictate the terms. His people were smart and made the fight at welter. Look what happened when they did fight at a higher weight. As you say, that was no draw, no way.
Duran was really past his prime as soon as he left the lightweights. But above 135 he was still formidable. His losses at heavier weights were predictable. I really think Duran was the best pound4pound of the lot. No one as ferocious and effective as duran at 135. Maybe Hagler.

bennie wrote:Leonard is the only one of the four to have beaten the other three of course. But, pound for pound, Duran was the best for me. His natural division was lightweight, where he was unbeatable as world champion. The other three were all licked as world champs in their best divisions.

I'd agree P4P Duran was the best by some way.

Followed by Leonard and Hagler tied at no2 and Hearns at 3.

Duran is definately number one for me pound for pound..... even judged just by his Lightweight years he was a all time great.... added to that he beat Leonard in his prime, gave Hagler a very tough fight when Hagler was in his prime, and beat Barkely (who twice beat Hearns!).
Leonard only agreed to fight Hagler when he knew Hagler was on the slide... the Hagler of 1980-to-1985 would have Koed Leonard.
Even then Leonard still made Hagler and his camp agree to numerous stipulations.... like gloves, duration of the fight, etc..... even in '87 had the fight been a 15 rounder, Hagler would have probably stopped Ray.
Hearns was robbed of victory in his 2nd fight with Leonard.
Hence, I'd rate the 'super 4' this way
Roberto Duran
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns
Ray Leonard

1. Leonard
2. Duran
3. Hagler
4. Hearns


While you can't argue with having Duran as numero uno P4P of the 4, I think Leonard on his day had the beating of all of them - he just wasn't around long enough to dominate the way Duran did.

Sugar Ray beat the very best of his generation - all the above greats, plus Benitez too ( who Duran couldn't deal with ).

I agree with most here

p4p would definitly be

1.Duran
2.Leonard
3.Hagler
4.Hearns

bollocks wrote:P4P is the best way to judge these guys. Head to head, there are a few too many variables

1)Duran
2)Hagler
3)Leonard
4)Hearns

Hearns and that chin - boy what a fighter he would have been, had he had one

P.S. Still waiting for an enquiry into Leonard - Hearns II. What a joke of a decision that was

Agree with the list, and the comments.

I agree that Leonards demands prior to the Hagler fight, and also before the Lalonde fight, and the dodgey decision in the 2nd Hears fight, plus his reluctance to give Hagler a rematch and making Hearns wait years for his rematch... are all factors which serve to take the gloss off Rays career.... theres no doubt that Ray at his best was a great and brave fighter but I can't help thinking that he'd be held in higher esteem today if he had never come back following his eye surgery.
All Rays comeback wins such as his victory over Hagler have all got a sour taste about them.
I don't know if anyone else has ever thought of this but why did Hagler come in to the Leonard fight at just 157?....... was there some deal made behind the scenes for Hagler to come in so low.... just as Lalonde agreed to come into their fight at 168?......... what do you guys think?.... am I just being a little paranoid here? 8)

I'm glad to see Leonard taking some heat in these comments. Usually, he's treated like one of the untouchable saints of the game, but i always had a lot of beefs with the way he went about business. Yes, very skilled, brilliant even, but his reputation is tarnished by all the maneuvers and mind games he played outside the ring. And did anyone ever hear Ray utter even one word of thanks to Angelo Dundee, Janks Morton or Mike Trainer? I never did.
About hagler at 157: I doubt if that was a stipulation. I can't imagine Hagler putting up with that much crap. Hagler was getting older, had had some tough bouts and so our hero Ray decided it was time to step up. But he still had to weedle little advantages for himself. Obviously, there's a lot a bout Ray Leonard that sticks in my craw.
What was the deal with Leonard and Joe Mesi? Why the split and who tried to screw whom?

From what I can remember Leonard got Hagler to agree to wear a certain type of boxing glove, and he said that the fight had to be 12 rounds...... perhaps he got Hagler to come in at 157 too?..... I wouldn't be surprised.... watching the fight Hagler isn't just slow, he seems to be weak to me...... yet I still think he would have won had the fight been 15 rounds. Hagler and the Petronellie brothers made a big mistake by underrating Leonards chances against Marvin.... Hagler seemed sure that he could get a ko and by the time he realised that Leonard still had quite a bit left he was already a good few rounds down.
Personally I still think that Hagler was unlucky to lose the decision.... Ironically I think Leonard would have gained more credit had he lost the fight.... if you know what I mean.
But Marvin looked very bad through the fight, just a shadow of his peak form..... much like Evander Holifield has looked for the past few years now.

One other thing Ive just thought of is that I remember reading that the Pettronelli brothers fell out with each other and stopped working together.... I wonder whether this might have been a result of the Hagler vs Leonard fight......... you know, with perhaps the brothers blaming eachother for the defeat, bad tactics etc.... or perhaps recriminations between them for agreeing to so many of Leonards stipulations?....

Didn't one of the judges have the fight 118-112 to Leonard?.I just don't see how anyone could score that fight like that.

118-110 sorry.

Yeah Steve, I mean this was a damn close fight which really could have gone either way.... you could give it to Leonard for the way he gave Marvin the run-a-round or you could give it to Marvin for his constant pressure, although much of his work was sluggish and slow.
The thing is Leonard didn't outbox Hagler the way Spinks recently outboxed Mayaorga or the way Delahoya outboxed Mosely (whooops! another dodgey verdict) ....Leonard just ran and ran and threw a flurry at the end of every round. Either way this was a close fight with only a round or two in it and that 118-110 is just.... well, PANTS!.... what fight was that guy watching??!!!.
Shame there wasn't ever a rematch between these guys... I think Leonard didn't want it (surprise surprise!!!) but Hagler didn't really press for it like you'd expect, I think he realised that he didn't really have it any more and perhaps didn't want to risk a repeat.

Hagler-Leonard...ugh! The most frustrating mega fight of the eighties. Even so, I've watched that tape so many times I can still see Hagler sluggishly following Ray around and hear Angelo Dundee's voice in the corner: "Flick the jab!, Flick the jab!".

I'll go with Leonard as being the best of that 80s erabecause he beat all the others in the ring ..Thats probably an unpopular choice but thats my choice as number 1
Followed by Hagler then Hearns followed by Benitez then Duran..

I included Benitez because he fought on reltively close fights with Leonard and Hearns when they were at their peak and Completely boxed the shoes off Duran in their 1982 fight plus he beat another Hall of famer Antonio Cervantes when he was 17 plus he schooled a lot of other real good fighters like Palomino and Maurice Hope He didn't like to train ..He was essentially washed up by he was 24 but in his brief prim benitez was really something

Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Duran

About Hagler at 157 vs. Leonard: Hagler was 158 vs. Minter and 157 vs. Hamsho (I), so it wasn't unusual for him to come in well under the limit.
Replayed my tape of Hagler-Hamsho I with Ray Leonard doing color commentary. Ray said he wanted to give Hagler a big payday. Then, as the fight progressed and Hagler dismantled Hamsho, Leonard said how impressed he was with Hagler. I think MMH scared him off. Leonard simply wouldn't fight him in his prime. And that stunt he pulled in '82 when he had that big public spectacle to announce his future plans. Hagler was present. Everyone expected Leonard to say he would come back to fight Hagler. Instead, he pulls the retirement card and leaves Hagler standing there feeling used. I had already lost respect for Leonard by that time, but that night just proved what a total douchebag he is.

bollocks wrote:Leonard is so vain that several years ago he was invited down here for some grand opening. As he was walking along the red carpet waving and smiling someone asked him "Ray, who's the best fighter in the world today?" The arrogance of the man, many years after his last retirement, he just couldn't bring him to give an honest opinion. After a fair pause he answered "Ray Leonard Jnr"

Just because Sugar Ray Leonard may be an egotistical bastard in no way detracts from his accomplishments in the ring ...In a short career he accomplished a tremendous amount..He whipped four first ballot hall-of-famers the only thing that really keeps him IMO from being considered one of the greatest of the greats is that he did not have enough fights...Wheather the guy is or is not a jerk has no bearing on his standing

All good posts.....

Let me just say, I'm glad I was able to see all of these guys fight!!!