BoxRec

Careers and greatness often come down to timing. Which fighters would be considered greater than they are if not for running into an exceptional opponent?

I think there are 2 categories...

Champs who would/might have been considered as greats if they had not run into someone supremely talented.

Top contenders who would have been champs/titlists if they hadn't come up against top champs. This happens far less now due to proliferation of belts.

My first attempt

Category 1

Billy Papke
Harold Johnson (still an ATG though)
Dwight Qawi
Rodrigo Valdez
Esteban DeJesus
Ken Buchanan
Meldrick Taylor

Category 2

Pat Cowdell
Mustafa Hamsho
Ron Lyle

cat 1- Buchanan/Duran


cat 2- Ruben Castillo

nice thread, Ezz, i will doubtless think of a few more later

Category 1

Davey Moore
Sumbu Kalambay


Category 2

Juan Laporte- Talk about a tough road. Chavez, Sanchez, Pedroza, Nelson & Gomez
Yaqui Lopez
Billy Graham

Counter-puncher wrote:cat 1- Buchanan/Duran


cat 2- Ruben Castillo

nice thread, Ezz, i will doubtless think of a few more later

I think Duran has Buchanan and DeJesus. Who do you prefer of the two?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Category 1

Davey Moore
Sumbu Kalambay


Category 2

Juan Laporte- Talk about a tough road. Chavez, Sanchez, Pedroza, Nelson & Gomez
Yaqui Lopez
Billy Graham

Kalambay is a great shout.

Moore was considered to be one of the hottest up and coming stars. I do feel though that he had the chance to come again and put the defeat behind him. He was young.

They should have just given Laporte a title in the end.

Lopez - another good call.

Graham is obviously a legend of the sport.

Willie Pep could have done without ever meeting Sandy Sadler.

That doesn't really fit the context. Pep's brilliant win over Saddler enhanced his rep more than the 3 losses hurt it. If they never fought, Willie wouldn't be ranked higher than he already is. That's his best win.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:That doesn't really fit the context. Pep's brilliant win over Saddler enhanced his rep more than the 3 losses hurt it. If they never fought, Willie wouldn't be ranked higher than he already is. That's his best win.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:That doesn't really fit the context. Pep's brilliant win over Saddler enhanced his rep more than the 3 losses hurt it. If they never fought, Willie wouldn't be ranked higher than he already is. That's his best win.

You're welcome.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:That doesn't really fit the context. Pep's brilliant win over Saddler enhanced his rep more than the 3 losses hurt it. If they never fought, Willie wouldn't be ranked higher than he already is. That's his best win.

You're welcome.

You don't have talk a load of rubbish Saad. Getting knocked out by Sadler in the first loss, hurt his reputation massively.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

You're welcome.

You don't have talk a load of rubbish Saad. Getting knocked out by Sadler in the first loss, hurt his reputation massively.

I didn't insult you. Your example doesn't fit in this thread. Not even close to it. Nobody will agree with you that Pep would be looked at as greater if it wasn't for Sandy Saddler. He frequents Top 5 all time lists as is.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
You're welcome.

You don't have talk a load of rubbish Saad. Getting knocked out by Sadler in the first loss, hurt his reputation massively.

I didn't insult you. Your example doesn't fit in this thread. Not even close to it. Nobody will agree with you that Pep would be looked at as greater if it wasn't for Sandy Saddler. He frequents Top 5 all time lists as is.

He lost three of four, if he'd won all four he'd be ranked higher. It's like saying Mosley is better off losing to Vernon Forrest.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: You don't have talk a load of rubbish Saad. Getting knocked out by Sadler in the first loss, hurt his reputation massively.

I didn't insult you. Your example doesn't fit in this thread. Not even close to it. Nobody will agree with you that Pep would be looked at as greater if it wasn't for Sandy Saddler. He frequents Top 5 all time lists as is.

He lost three of four, if he'd won all four he'd be ranked higher. It's like saying Mosley is better off losing to Vernon Forrest.

I didn't say he was better off losing. I said your example doesn't belong in the thread and it definitely does not. Try reading the question again.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
I didn't insult you. Your example doesn't fit in this thread. Not even close to it. Nobody will agree with you that Pep would be looked at as greater if it wasn't for Sandy Saddler. He frequents Top 5 all time lists as is.

He lost three of four, if he'd won all four he'd be ranked higher. It's like saying Mosley is better off losing to Vernon Forrest.

I didn't say he was better off losing. I said your example doesn't belong in the thread and it definitely does not. Try reading the question again.

Thread Nazi.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: He lost three of four, if he'd won all four he'd be ranked higher. It's like saying Mosley is better off losing to Vernon Forrest.

I didn't say he was better off losing. I said your example doesn't belong in the thread and it definitely does not. Try reading the question again.

Thread Nazi.

It's pretty sad when you can't carry on a conversation because of some stupid internet grudge.

Would Erik Morales be greater if it wasn't for Manny Pacquiao? No, he would not. Same goes for pep. Nobody even rates Saddler ahead of him as a featherweight. That should tell you something. But since it's coming from me I'm sure you wont be able to accept the obvious truth. Whatever floats your boat. It's a good thread and I'm not going to bother carrying on with you.

Ezzard wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Category 1

Davey Moore
Sumbu Kalambay


Category 2

Juan Laporte- Talk about a tough road. Chavez, Sanchez, Pedroza, Nelson & Gomez
Yaqui Lopez
Billy Graham

Kalambay is a great shout.

Moore was considered to be one of the hottest up and coming stars. I do feel though that he had the chance to come again and put the defeat behind him. He was young.

They should have just given Laporte a title in the end.

Lopez - another good call.

Graham is obviously a legend of the sport.

Juan LaPorte was WBC Featherweight Champion

Alan Rudkin, tough guys in each of his world title shots.

I agree with Saad on the whole Pep/Saddler argument, and citing Morales/Pacquiao as argument is a good example.

Category 1
Fernando Vargas ( Tito and DLH both did him in, but I think he would've beaten most other contenders of the time if not for them)

Category 2
David Reid (if his management hadn't rushed him into the Tito fight I'm sure he could've at least held a title at some point)

gilgamesh wrote:I agree with Saad on the whole Pep/Saddler argument, and citing Morales/Pacquiao as argument is a good example.

Category 1
Fernando Vargas ( Tito and DLH both did him in, but I think he would've beaten most other contenders of the time if not for them)

Category 2
David Reid (if his management hadn't rushed him into the Tito fight I'm sure he could've at least held a title at some point)

The difference between Pep - Sadler and Morales - Pacquiao is that Pep lost 3 of 4 against a worse fighter than him. Morales lost two of three against a guy that will be rated much higher than him P4P historically.

gilgamesh wrote:I agree with Saad on the whole Pep/Saddler argument, and citing Morales/Pacquiao as argument is a good example.

Category 1
Fernando Vargas ( Tito and DLH both did him in, but I think he would've beaten most other contenders of the time if not for them)

Category 2
David Reid (if his management hadn't rushed him into the Tito fight I'm sure he could've at least held a title at some point)

Reid was actually making the third defense of his WBA 154 pound belt when he fought Tito.

I don't keep up with who holds title belts to be honest, so I didn't know David Reid had a belt, but still he was just a contender.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:I agree with Saad on the whole Pep/Saddler argument, and citing Morales/Pacquiao as argument is a good example.

Category 1
Fernando Vargas ( Tito and DLH both did him in, but I think he would've beaten most other contenders of the time if not for them)

Category 2
David Reid (if his management hadn't rushed him into the Tito fight I'm sure he could've at least held a title at some point)

The difference between Pep - Sadler and Morales - Pacquiao is that Pep lost 3 of 4 against a worse fighter than him. Morales lost two of three against a guy that will be rated much higher than him P4P historically.

Pep had been through a plane crash before the first time they ever fought though, so I'm sure that didn't help at all against a murderous puncher like Saddler

One of the main one that comes to mind is Ken Norton. He fought and lost to Ali x 2 , George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry Cooney, although Cooney wasn't particularly talented. He had bad luck with his his timing, otherwise, he may have been champ for a while.

Its sort of similar to Andy Roddick, how many times has his potential greatness been thwarted by either Roger Federer or Nadal?

Interesting topic.
Papke, Valdez and most of all Johnson are probably the best category 1. They are regarded as great, but would have been regarded as even greater if it was not for their nemesis.

I would add:
Sugar Ramos (lost to Saldivar)
Alfonso Zamora (lost to Zarate)
Liston
Maybe Curtis Cokes (lost to Napoles)

Have to think harder for Category 2

Jock McAvoy, small as a L-HW, up against John Henry Lewis.

exceptional as a MW, denied a World MW Title fight!

among just a handfull of fighters "rated" in the Ring's Top 10, at 2 weights, for a significant period in the late 30s.