BoxRec

As the question says, what ATG or Hall of Famer (HoF) had the weakest opposition?

It's Ricardo Lopez, though his opposition is probably somewhat misunderstood, as I see it.

Still, this guy is the uncrowned greatest Mexican fighter ever.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It's Ricardo Lopez, though his opposition is probably somewhat misunderstood, as I see it.

Still, this guy is the uncrowned greatest Mexican fighter ever.

Though I think he is more like the 12th greatest Mexican. He had every skill in the book.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It's Ricardo Lopez, though his opposition is probably somewhat misunderstood, as I see it.

Still, this guy is the uncrowned greatest Mexican fighter ever.

Though I think he is more like the 12th greatest Mexican. He had every skill in the book.

Pure conjecture, but I just think if the competition was there, he would've eventually won recognition as the best in Mexico's history. I have not seen a broader skill-set or more perfect punch-execution & offensive variety from any other Mexican (I rate, all things considered, Olivares as the best ever, IMO), but we'll never really know.

He's the best example for this thread I can think of. Larry Holmes might well be another.

Good shout on Holmes.

Jaywheel wrote:Good shout on Holmes.

A man whose competition doesnt get enough scrutiny, IMO.

Throw Rocky Marciano, Mike Tyson and Bob Foster into the pot while we are here.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Jaywheel wrote:Good shout on Holmes.

A man whose competition doesnt get enough scrutiny, IMO.

Throw Rocky Marciano, Mike Tyson and Bob Foster into the pot while we are here.

I would have pegged Foster as the answer if not for his beatings at heavyweight.

I can't claim to have a vast knowledge of the European scene in those days. But Cerdan's record seems lacking until the very end. Especially for where I see him placed.

BarryWashington wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I can't claim to have a vast knowledge of the European scene in those days. But Cerdan's record seems lacking until the very end. Especially for where I see him placed.

heres some of cerdans best opponents:

saverio turiello (w - feb. '39)
saverio turiello (w - june '39)
holman williams (w - june '46)
georgie abrams (w - dec. '46)
jean walzack (w - feb '48)
laverne roach (w - march '48)
cyrille delannoit (w - june '48)
tony zale (w - sept '48)
dick turpin (w - sept '49)
jake lamotta (l - june '49)

as u can see he has some decent competition but unfortunately these were his best opponents and he finished with a career record of : 111 - 4 (1) - 0. tho its not bad.

Williams was on the other side of the pasture. Turiello, Walzack & Roach I am not familiar with.

Sonny Liston's opposition (at least the opponents he beat) was poor for a man with such a reputation.

BarryWashington wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BarryWashington wrote: heres some of cerdans best opponents:

saverio turiello (w - feb. '39)
saverio turiello (w - june '39)
holman williams (w - june '46)
georgie abrams (w - dec. '46)
jean walzack (w - feb '48)
laverne roach (w - march '48)
cyrille delannoit (w - june '48)
tony zale (w - sept '48)
dick turpin (w - sept '49)
jake lamotta (l - june '49)

as u can see he has some decent competition but unfortunately these were his best opponents and he finished with a career record of : 111 - 4 (1) - 0. tho its not bad.

Williams was on the other side of the pasture. Turiello, Walzack & Roach I am not familiar with.

i know however its reported williams still gave a good account of himself but i do acknowledge it wasnt the holman of '37-'42.

I have no doubt he gave a good account of himself. Holman was one of the GOAT. Top 30 or 40 for me. Far ahead of Cerdan.

crusader wrote:Sonny Liston's opposition (at least the opponents he beat) was poor for a man with such a reputation.

I don't agree with that. He cleaned house in a relatively deep division.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

crusader wrote:Sonny Liston's opposition (at least the opponents he beat) was poor for a man with such a reputation.

I don't agree with that. He cleaned house in a relatively deep division.

Who were the best fighters that he beat? Aside from Patterson no one jumps out at me.

BarryWashington wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I can't claim to have a vast knowledge of the European scene in those days. But Cerdan's record seems lacking until the very end. Especially for where I see him placed.

heres some of cerdans best opponents:

saverio turiello (w - feb. '39)
saverio turiello (w - june '39)
holman williams (w - june '46)
georgie abrams (w - dec. '46)
jean walzack (w - feb '48)
laverne roach (w - march '48)
cyrille delannoit (w - june '48)
tony zale (w - sept '48)
dick turpin (w - sept '49)
jake lamotta (l - june '49)

as u can see he has some decent competition but unfortunately these were his best opponents and he finished with a career record of : 111 - 4 (1) - 0. tho its not bad.

You forgot Bert Gilroy.

Him along with Williams, Abrams, Zale and LaMotta ensure he should not be in the running here.

Ricardo Lopez, Bob Foster, and John L Sullivan come to mind here. Also honorable mention to Julio Cesar Chavez (in relation to the status he's routinely given).

crusader wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

crusader wrote:Sonny Liston's opposition (at least the opponents he beat) was poor for a man with such a reputation.

I don't agree with that. He cleaned house in a relatively deep division.

Who were the best fighters that he beat? Aside from Patterson no one jumps out at me.

Zora Folley, Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Johnny Summerlin plus Patterson is an EXCELLENT group of fighters. Liston has an excellent resume, definitely better than that of the likes of Holmes and Tyson.

dempseyfire wrote:

crusader wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: I don't agree with that. He cleaned house in a relatively deep division.

Who were the best fighters that he beat? Aside from Patterson no one jumps out at me.

Zora Folley, Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Johnny Summerlin plus Patterson is an EXCELLENT group of fighters. Liston has an excellent resume, definitely better than that of the likes of Holmes and Tyson.

I guess we will have to disagree, because I don't see anything special about most of the fighters you have mentioned, especially DeJohn, Valdez, and Summerlin, all of whom have no part in any "excellent group of fighters." Even Willliams was a guy who I believe gets too much credit for losing to great fighters rather than actually having his own prolific list of impressive wins.

I totally disagree that Liston had a better resume than Holmes.

crusader wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

crusader wrote: Who were the best fighters that he beat? Aside from Patterson no one jumps out at me.

Zora Folley, Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Johnny Summerlin plus Patterson is an EXCELLENT group of fighters. Liston has an excellent resume, definitely better than that of the likes of Holmes and Tyson.

I guess we will have to disagree, because I don't see anything special about most of the fighters you have mentioned, especially DeJohn, Valdez, and Summerlin, all of whom have no part in any "excellent group of fighters." Even Willliams was a guy who I believe gets too much credit for losing to great fighters rather than actually having his own prolific list of impressive wins.

I'll take that group anyday over the likes of Berbick, Cooney, Snipes, Spinks, Witherspoon, Smith etc. More skilled, more complete fighters in a much deeper talent pool. Williams had the punch of Shavers but didn't gas out after 5 rounds and had much greater speed explosiveness, anf countering ability. Snipes, Berbick and Smith were athletic talents but amateurs skill-wise compared to a Machen or Folley. Even Summerlin would've taken the likes of a Berbick or Snipes to school and back. Holmes's best wins were over Norton (great win), Shavers and Witherspoon (very good wins) but I don't see Witherspoon or Shavers being beyond lower top 10 contenders in the late 50s/early 60s.

It has to be either a modern fighter who fights few fights and takes few risks or an old-timer where we don't know enough about his opponents.

I don't know enough about Jimmy Wilde's opponents. He has a great record in terms of stats but few names I recognise. But this is probablt just my ignorance.

Some people rank Roy Jones high based on fat Toney and a not-quite-there Hopkins.

OK fellas, prepare to your socks off.......

......But I've gotta say Joe Louis.

Yes he beat some great fighters, but look at the records of some foes.

You can't just look at records via boxrec. Someone on Louis's record like a Gus Dorazio didn't have a fancy record but he beat a slew of excellent fighters and got robbed vs a few others, he would rip the heart out of most HWs today and piss on it mid-ring.

Louis actually has one of the strongest records of HW champs, the likes of Schmeling, Baer brothers, Pastor, Farr, Godoy, Nova, Mauriello, Walcott etc. were elite fighters, along with lesser knows in a very deep era like Charlie Retzlaff, Al Ettore, Roscoe Tolles, Nathan Mann, Lee Ramage etc. It would certainly make my top 5 HW resumes of all time.

I don't know much beyond results when it comes to Toles. What was the scoop on him? Why didn't he ever get a title shot?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I don't know much beyond results when it comes to Toles. What was the scoop on him? Why didn't he ever get a title shot?

Tolles was well regarded as a fairly big (6'2 I believe) boxer-puncher type with better power than his record indicates (when you fight Arturo Godoy 7 times your KO percentage will suffer). Reason he didn't get a shot? Seems the same reason other talented black HWs of the era didn't, boxing politics and a few hard luck losses at bad times, such as his losses to Pastor and Simon (both of whom got shots for the title)

keithmoonhangover wrote:OK fellas, prepare to your socks off.......

......But I've gotta say Joe Louis.

Yes he beat some great fighters, but look at the records of some foes.

Amateur

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:OK fellas, prepare to your socks off.......

......But I've gotta say Joe Louis.

Yes he beat some great fighters, but look at the records of some foes.

Amateur

Child.