BoxRec

I've had Bernard ahead of Manny and Floyd for quite some time. While his Middleweight run wasn't loaded with the greatest challengers, he still beat everyone put in front of him (including Taylor). His older stuff has been incredible, including beating the #1 guy at 175, twice, at 46 years old.

I'm close to alone on this, but I've enjoyed most of his fights. I love watching old school defense like that. He really is a marvel on that side of things and how he outboxes his opponents with very minimal use of his jab is equally impressive.

I have him inside the top 20. Right there with Whitaker as the best of the last two decades. Do you think this is one of a kind stuff? Or is it just an indicator of how south fundamentals have fallen in the modern game? Obviously he is an all time great without question. But where do you rate him?

He's a definite top 20 p4per in my humble opinion.

He's just a remarkable sportsman, the like of which we may never see again.

I believe that history will be even kinder to Hopkins than we are & it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up in the top 10 of all-time by our successors, as you've seen how legends are enhanced by word of mouth etc.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've had Bernard ahead of Manny and Floyd for quite some time. While his Middleweight run wasn't loaded with the greatest challengers, he still beat everyone put in front of him (including Taylor). His older stuff has been incredible, including beating the #1 guy at 175, twice, at 46 years old.

I'm close to alone on this, but I've enjoyed most of his fights. I love watching old school defense like that. He really is a marvel on that side of things and how he outboxes his opponents with very minimal use of his jab is equally impressive.

I have him inside the top 20. Right there with Whitaker as the best of the last two decades. Do you think this is one of a kind stuff? Or is it just an indicator of how south fundamentals have fallen in the modern game? Obviously he is an all time great without question. But where do you rate him?

I have him north of Pacquao and noth of the top 20. I'll take Pac's best Ws over Bernard's anyday of the week. Hopkins would be great in any era but one has to put his recent successes in perspective, the light heavyweight division has been a wasteland for some time now . .Tarver and Pascal would both lose to a 175 lb Hearns IMO, not even considering some of the true great 175 lbers. And historically, middleweights moving up to 175 is no big deal at all, whereas moving up from flyweight to welter and beating top fighters the whole journey is.

On a side-note about your jab comment, I think he would've had an easier time last night if he had used the jab more, but he primarily used it as a countering/defensive tool. Back in his prime he used to have a great jab he kept pumping all night, just look at how he paints Glen Johnson with the jab. I don't know why he's stopped using it much the past few years, maybe b/c he wants to conserve energy and minimize opportunities to be countered being a tinge slower in his older years.

From a truly historical standpoint Manny would have never sniffed a fight at Flyweight. Of course Bernard wouldn't have made Light Heavy for last night either.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:From a truly historical standpoint Manny would have never sniffed a fight at Flyweight. Of course Bernard wouldn't have made Light Heavy for last night either.

Fine, shoot him up to bantam . .still highly impressive.

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:From a truly historical standpoint Manny would have never sniffed a fight at Flyweight. Of course Bernard wouldn't have made Light Heavy for last night either.

Fine, shoot him up to bantam . .still highly impressive.

Absolutely, his resume speaks for itself. I just tire of the whole Flyweight to Welter statements. It isn't like he was the only guy that benefited from sucking weight and the accomplishment counts. But it isn't extraordinary when stacked up against some older fighters that climbed weight classes without the extra day.

But Manny is gaining on the Hit Man.

He get's older keeps winning and just makes me appreciate more and more how good Joe Calzaghe was.

dempseyfire wrote:Tarver and Pascal would both lose to a 175 lb Hearns IMO.

I had to quote this because it's exactly what was running through my mind when I watched the fight last night.

He's a top 10 ATG Middle. Where you put him is up to you.

In a p4p sense... I don't know. He seems a top 30 candidate but unless I sit down and go over everyone's achievements I can't be sure.

From my lifetime I'd put Duran and Pac above him but after that it's debatable.

As a middleweight, I place Hopkins within the top 15 or even 10. For me, though, it is his longetivity and success at higher weights that shocks the hell out of me. I know a reporter said of Bernard that the only two athletes he could think of to compare Hopkins with were Gordie Howell and Nolan Ryan, but for me I see Archie Moore in Hopkins. On the p4p list, he is right up there with the Harold Johnson's, Charley Burley's, and Sam Langford's without question or doubt. THE REAL ANSWER IS....how would he fair with a LaMotta, Robinson, Maxim, Foster, Conn, etc?

Bernard is a freak - and i mean that in the nicest possible way.

Years ago i never used to appreciate his fights - but like a fine wine he has grown on me.

The boxer i'd tell a aspiring boxer to look at & study. He has everything technically sound. Still cant believe he's 46!

In all fairness Foreman was no where near the best heavyweight in the world when he won his title but Hopkins could still be considered THE best.... & thats incredible!

Hats off to the man - LEGEND.

Seamus wrote:He get's older keeps winning and just makes me appreciate more and more how good Joe Calzaghe was.

On that Token, i take it seeing Jeff Lacy makes you really cringe at Joe's resume then?
oh wait thats right, joe "ruined" that #10 ATG p4p legend didn't he

Froch and Ward put Joe to shame

[quote="HomicideHenry"] On the p4p list, he is right up there with the Harold Johnson's, Charley Burley's, and Sam Langford's without question or doubt.quote]

Wow, talk about exaggeration. Up there with the Langford's lb for lb? Some people are getting really carried away here, it's very impressive a 46 year old guy beat a 28 year old champion but come on Pascal is one of the weakest legit light HW champs in history, if not the weakest. The resumes of Burley, Johnson, Langford, Moore, Conn etc. put Bernard's to shame. Bernard has been highly consistent but not over other great fighters, who is his best W? Trinidad? Tarver? a 170 lb Wright? I think he's competitive with other ATGs but at middle he's top 20 at best and lb for lb probably top 40, and that is probably generous considering the comp he's up against.

Ezzard wrote:He's a top 10 ATG Middle. Where you put him is up to you.

In a p4p sense... I don't know. He seems a top 30 candidate but unless I sit down and go over everyone's achievements I can't be sure.

From my lifetime I'd put Duran and Pac above him but after that it's debatable.

Once again, I cannot disagree with this man

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:From a truly historical standpoint Manny would have never sniffed a fight at Flyweight. Of course Bernard wouldn't have made Light Heavy for last night either.

Are you still holding Pacquiao below Holyfield all-time, though?

Isn't that a silly question? Certainly you couldn't think the Mosley fight would change things for me?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Isn't that a silly question? Certainly you couldn't think the Mosley fight would change things for me?

Good for you. The only thing on steroids is Mannys record, which is blown up beyond logic simply because it has some easily remembered names with no regard to what was actually happening before and after those fights.