BoxRec

On the night Ali beat a prime Foreman...

Which HWs from history would have beaten Ali that night has he used the exact same tactics?

Ali barely missed a shot, took the sting out of most shots coming back and did bounce for a minute here and there. But he was also stationary for long periods and at times offering up his body.

Holyfield, Dempsey, Tyson, Liston, Marciano & Frazier off the top of my head. Louis might have put him in a morgue.

Louis would've really hurt him, I think.

Liston (the peak version, not the ageing vet Ali upset) would've been interesting.

What often get's lost in the discussion when the subject of the rope a dope strategy comes up is the fact that Ali came into that fight psyched to eyeballs and as determined to win as any fighter in history.

Ali's determination gets lost in the shuffle? By whom? It wasn't just that fight, Ali was always amped up and determined to win.

Well, Ali did try the Rope-a-Dope in some of his other fights. He was very defensive and not on-the-move as much with George Chuvalo and Ron Lyle, believing that they would "punch themselves out" as it were.

The rope-a-dope was effective, but it only really worked for Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle. The tactic wouldn't be encouraged when facing heavy punchers with good stamina.

Ali would have got hurt if he tried that with Tyson, but I do think that Iron Mike "would punch himself out of steam"...
Don't think it would've worked with Marciano or Dempsey, as they were used to plugging away for long periods.

And that tactic definitely WOULD NOT have worked with Louis. Joe would have bee clever enough to work out what Ali was up to.

I'll tell you someone he would humiliate using those tactics, Vitali Klitschko. Kevin Johnson did it without the threat of punching back and Vitali looked like a model trying to do a crossword.

Ali tried the Rope a Dope against Frazier in the Thrilla in Manilla but quickly changed his mind when Joe starting to put a whupping on his ribcage.

Don Dunphy and Ken Norton discussed it in commentary and picked up that Rope a Dope couldn't work against Frazier because his hooks were fast, sharp and accurate. Rope a Dope can only work against fighters who throw wide, slow shots.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I'll tell you someone he would humiliate using those tactics, Vitali Klitschko. Kevin Johnson did it without the threat of punching back and Vitali looked like a model trying to do a crossword.

Ali could use just about any of his gambets, though, & humiliate big bro. They are so far apart in class, you could fit a planet between them.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali's determination gets lost in the shuffle? By whom? It wasn't just that fight, Ali was always amped up and determined to win.

Come on, Ali strolled into several fights just showing up to get paid and believing his natural ability would shine through . . which it usually did (Bugner, Mathis, Evangelista, Norton 1)

I agree with Liston, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano as guys who could've beaten the Zaire Ali (would add in Johnson).

Knew Saad would say Evander, even though he's conveniently forgetting Holyfield managed just a close decision win over a 42 year old Holmes who essentially fought the same strategy!!
Don't see Tyson beating him either. Tyson is tailor made for any Ali through the Rumble (I would favor Tyson over the Manilla Ali and of course any Ali post-Manilla)

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali's determination gets lost in the shuffle? By whom? It wasn't just that fight, Ali was always amped up and determined to win.

Come on, Ali strolled into several fights just showing up to get paid and believing his natural ability would shine through . . which it usually did (Bugner, Mathis, Evangelista, Norton 1)

I agree with Liston, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano as guys who could've beaten the Zaire Ali (would add in Johnson).

Knew Saad would say Evander, even though he's conveniently forgetting Holyfield managed just a close decision win over a 42 year old Holmes who essentially fought the same strategy!!
Don't see Tyson beating him either. Tyson is tailor made for any Ali through the Rumble (I would favor Tyson over the Manilla Ali and of course any Ali post-Manilla)

I didn't forget anything. Holyfield beat Holmes comfortably in spite of getting an elbow slammed into his eye. Nobody could just lay on the ropes and beat him or Tyson.

Surely if lesser fighters like Dempsey and marciano could do it, a truly great offensive machine like the Real deal has a chance?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali's determination gets lost in the shuffle? By whom? It wasn't just that fight, Ali was always amped up and determined to win.

Come on, Ali strolled into several fights just showing up to get paid and believing his natural ability would shine through . . which it usually did (Bugner, Mathis, Evangelista, Norton 1)

I agree with Liston, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano as guys who could've beaten the Zaire Ali (would add in Johnson).

Knew Saad would say Evander, even though he's conveniently forgetting Holyfield managed just a close decision win over a 42 year old Holmes who essentially fought the same strategy!!
Don't see Tyson beating him either. Tyson is tailor made for any Ali through the Rumble (I would favor Tyson over the Manilla Ali and of course any Ali post-Manilla)

I didn't forget anything. Holyfield beat Holmes comfortably in spite of getting an elbow slammed into his eye. Nobody could just lay on the ropes and beat him or Tyson.

Surely if lesser fighters like Dempsey and marciano could do it, a truly great offensive machine like the Real deal has a chance?

Saad, you cheeky pudendum

I do have to side with Demps on one thing - Ali definitely coasted into fights from time-to-time.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Come on, Ali strolled into several fights just showing up to get paid and believing his natural ability would shine through . . which it usually did (Bugner, Mathis, Evangelista, Norton 1)

I agree with Liston, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano as guys who could've beaten the Zaire Ali (would add in Johnson).

Knew Saad would say Evander, even though he's conveniently forgetting Holyfield managed just a close decision win over a 42 year old Holmes who essentially fought the same strategy!!
Don't see Tyson beating him either. Tyson is tailor made for any Ali through the Rumble (I would favor Tyson over the Manilla Ali and of course any Ali post-Manilla)

I didn't forget anything. Holyfield beat Holmes comfortably in spite of getting an elbow slammed into his eye. Nobody could just lay on the ropes and beat him or Tyson.

Surely if lesser fighters like Dempsey and marciano could do it, a truly great offensive machine like the Real deal has a chance?

Saad, you cheeky pudendum

I do have to side with Demps on one thing - Ali definitely coasted into fights from time-to-time.

I know how to respond to an obvious bait.

And yeah, he was right about that. But it also was an overstatement to act like Ali's desire there outweighed every other fight in his career.

...normally earnie shaver threw big punches in wide arcs, but his corner knew he had stamina trouble so he backed away much of the time when ali went into his rope a dope and waited till ali came away from the ropes....and gave him a good fight. i think there are many heavies of the past who would have used the same tactic, and won.

joe louis would simply have split ali's hands and punched through the opening.

plus it depends on whether ali would have been the challenger or champion. if he were the challenger a champion could just have stood in the center of the ring and waited for him to come out. if he didn't it would be the dullest fight in title history...a draw...and the champion would keep his title.or more likely the referee would throw him out of the ring for not fighting.

Among the things I don't believe that were mentioned. 1. Ali WAS hit by some tremendous shots by one of the hardest punching heavyweights that night in Kinshasa. 2.His counterpunching, left a guy with a better chin than Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, etc walking back to his locker room like a mugging victim.

1.Ali took severe punishment to the body, he never ate anything clean to the head. But his ability to eat body shots is virtually unparalleled.

2. What he definitely didn't have was the stamina of any of those three. And he was knocked out by exhaustion more than Ali's shots. Those 3 guys would have pasted him all night if he laid there waiting for them to get tired. Or at least until the ref stopped the slaughter. Ali wasn't really countering as much as briefly flurrying and waiting for George to stop punching.

3. I am a little biased about this fight. I've seen it 2,000 times thanks to Classic Sports. As great of an event and accomplishment as it was I find it to be incredibly overrated from an action standpoint and I'm far more impressed by Ali's durability in several other fights.

...saad.. i haven't watched it nearly as many times as you have but i agree it is not an exciting fight....a lot of pitty patting by foreman while ali was against the ropes as foreman's energy faded. seeing it live was exciting for a different reason, as it became obvious that against all ods ali looked as if he was going to win as the rounds went on.

Seamus wrote:Among the things I don't believe that were mentioned. 1. Ali WAS hit by some tremendous shots by one of the hardest punching heavyweights that night in Kinshasa. 2.His counterpunching, left a guy with a better chin than Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, etc walking back to his locker room like a mugging victim.

Your favourite (& by now, very tired) description

I have seen him make that comment, but it is accurrate. He got hit over and over by the hardest hitting heavyweight champion of all time and never came close to getting stopped. He stopped a guy that no one else ever stopped. That is pretty impressive.

I don't see how anyone is going to stop him. If Foreman couldn't do it, no else is going to. It would take someone who has an ability to take an awful lot punishment and land a very high amount of punches to have a chance to win a decison.

Holyfield probably had about as good of a chance as anyone.

Ambling Alp wrote:I have seen him make that comment, but it is accurrate. He got hit over and over by the hardest hitting heavyweight champion of all time and never came close to getting stopped. He stopped a guy that no one else ever stopped. That is pretty impressive.

Sure it was impressive but lets be honest, George missed the count. Foreman was hurt but not that badly.

He certainly was not going to last too many more rounds even if he "missed the count". He was hurt. He was stumbling around pretty badly before he went down.

...no way to tell how badly foreman was hurt but it's easy to see that he was totally exhausted and alp is right...though he may not have been able to go beyond even one more round.

As people have said, after that fight Ali attempt the Rope-the-Dope tactic in several other fights with limited success. Obvious examples are Norton III, Shavers, Frazier III,Young, Lyle aswell others

The reason it work well against Foreman, in my opinion, was the fact Foreman was a fast starter who often loaded up. Ali realised this and pretty much saw ever punch coming, anticipating and bracing himself.

A Frazier, Louis, Tyson or even Holyfield could obviously punch but maybe not with the blunt power Foreman possesed, but their greater accuracy, speed and punching in combination would have certainly troubled the Ali in Kinshasa, moreso than Foreman did, that night.

jaclem2 wrote:...no way to tell how badly foreman was hurt but it's easy to see that he was totally exhausted and alp is right...though he may not have been able to go beyond even one more round.

I disagree, I think he would have lasted the distance and lost on points. Sure he was exhausted but Ali was tired too and the knockdown was not devastating, a combination of being tagged and being off balance. He was hurt a bit but nothing like he was against Lyle and he beat those counts.

He barely beat the count against Lyle.

Lasted the distance? No way in the world he was going to last 7 more rounds. He was tired and hurt. He didn't have his legs under him and was floundering. Ali could have hit him one time but didn't think it was necessary.