BoxRec

I go with Ali / Williams and Ali / Terrell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFz ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

I choose these fights because he was in his prime when they were fought and getting better. After being allowed to work again he was not the same as he was before even though he kept producing great fights.

Ali/Frazier 1 is the best heavyweight fight of all time, IMO.

Also enjoyed Ali/Shavers.

Knucklez wrote:Ali/Frazier 1 is the best heavyweight fight of all time, IMO.

Also enjoyed Ali/Shavers.

I did get to see Ali / Frazier 1, 2 and 3. All great fights. He was a very active fighter by today's standards. I was on the edge of my seat all through that one and when Frazier put him down I was aghast.

He had lost a split second of his timing due to the layoff and he was not the fighter he was before the lay off, but his superior natural ability and heart made up the difference for a while.

That is why I chose the pre banishment fights. He was fighting everyone at that time and he was at his peak when the pink slip or black list whatever you want to call it came down and he was effectively forbidden to work here. There was a solid cadre of heavyweights at that time too. He was the best, hands down.

The Second God wrote:I go with Ali / Williams and Ali / Terrell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFz ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

I choose these fights because he was in his prime when they were fought and getting better. After being allowed to work again he was not the same as he was before even though he kept producing great fights.

Sure enough Ali looked impressive ,but his greatest fight certainly was not the Williams fight.. Williams was a bare shell of his former self after he was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen a year earlier, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

If you look at a prime Cleveland Williams it was a completely different fighter, One i believe could have caused the young Ali much grief.

Panzerfaust wrote:

The Second God wrote:I go with Ali / Williams and Ali / Terrell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFz ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

I choose these fights because he was in his prime when they were fought and getting better. After being allowed to work again he was not the same as he was before even though he kept producing great fights.

Sure enough Ali looked impressive ,but his greatest fight certainly was not the Williams fight.. Williams was a bare shell of his former self after he was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen a year earlier, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

If you look at a prime Cleveland Williams it was a completely different fighter, One i believe could have caused the young Ali much grief.

I knew that about Williams. The 'Big Cat' he was not the goods that he once was.

However Terrell was in prime condition and had the nation cheering for him. I listened to the fight on the radio. Got to see it 40 years later. Ali was so superior in that fight I doubt God could have beaten him.

My mom and I were listening to the fight, she had listened to Joe Louis's fights as well. When Ali kept asking ''whats my name' after hitting Terrell she swore for the first and only time I heard her swear in my life. She called Ali a bastard.

Ali's best fight?

March 8, 1971.

Panzerfaust wrote:

The Second God wrote:I go with Ali / Williams and Ali / Terrell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFz ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

I choose these fights because he was in his prime when they were fought and getting better. After being allowed to work again he was not the same as he was before even though he kept producing great fights.

Sure enough Ali looked impressive ,but his greatest fight certainly was not the Williams fight.. Williams was a bare shell of his former self after he was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen a year earlier, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

If you look at a prime Cleveland Williams it was a completely different fighter, One i believe could have caused the young Ali much grief.

Thank you, I'm so sick of that being mentioned among Ali's best performances. His opponent was shot, literally. That wasn't anymore impressive than Holmes performance against Ali.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Panzerfaust wrote:

The Second God wrote:I go with Ali / Williams and Ali / Terrell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFz ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

I choose these fights because he was in his prime when they were fought and getting better. After being allowed to work again he was not the same as he was before even though he kept producing great fights.

Sure enough Ali looked impressive ,but his greatest fight certainly was not the Williams fight.. Williams was a bare shell of his former self after he was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen a year earlier, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

If you look at a prime Cleveland Williams it was a completely different fighter, One i believe could have caused the young Ali much grief.

Thank you, I'm so sick of that being mentioned among Ali's best performances. His opponent was shot, literally. That wasn't anymore impressive than Holmes performance against Ali.

Yeah I went home sick at heart after that fight. Man, seeing him take that beating was disheartening. But shit it happens to all of us in one way or another.

Even at his best, Williams is quite over-rated anyway.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Even at his best, Williams is quite over-rated anyway.

Agreed, but Clay fought him at his absolute worst. That victory has gotten way more play than it ever deserved. It's as much a disservice to Ali's career as it is to Williams.

No arguments here. Just another cog in the Ali propaganda machine.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Even at his best, Williams is quite over-rated anyway.

Agreed, but Clay fought him at his absolute worst. That victory has gotten way more play than it ever deserved. It's as much a disservice to Ali's career as it is to Williams.

Deal with the Terrell fight.

Williams was shot, pun intended and not intended. But with Terrell that is irelevant.

Ali looked good against Williams because williams was not really present. I listened to the fight while in the hospital.

Williams came in with the history of being a hard puncher. I was young and was just reading the blurbs.

But Ali met most of everyone in the division at the time. The best.

Terrell was one of the best and he was given a lesson in how to address a man.

I truly think of that fight as his best exhibition of being able to do what he wanted to do in the ring against any opponent. He not only humiliated a world class fighter he did it so convincingly that his skills should never be doubted. And this was before the lay off.

I think Ali's prime was probably during some point of the layoff. If you put a prelayoof Clay in MSG against Frazier i don't think he would hear the final bell. While some of the speed was gone he was a bigger and sturdier Heavyweight. That would serve him better against other all time greats.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think Ali's prime was probably during some point of the layoff. If you put a prelayoof Clay in MSG against Frazier i don't think he would hear the final bell. While some of the speed was gone he was a bigger and sturdier Heavyweight. That would serve him better against other all time greats.

Noted. Ali was not god. Doug Jones taught him something, as did Henry Cooper. He did not have a good time with Mildenberger either.

And there have been other really great champions like Holyfield. But Ali has captured the attention of the world. Not too many peole look with respect on Holyfield for his presence in the world despite his fights with Bowe and Tyson etc. If they do it is not in the same way they respect Ali.

Now youre singing Saads tune

Saad is one of our more empassioned debaters, but high praise of Holyfield is like that sweet spot on a sharks belly

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Now youre singing Saads tune

Saad is one of our more empassioned debaters, but high praise of Holyfield is like that sweet spot on a sharks belly

Whatever.

The Holyfield / Bowe fights are equal in my mind to those of Frazier and Ali.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Even at his best, Williams is quite over-rated anyway.

I hear this all the time and I don't see what it's based on. The guy was the most feared HW of his era after Liston. Drew with slickster Machen, knocked out Terrell and I thought deserved the W vs him in the rematch at a time when Ernie was beating all of the contenders. Also beat tough Alex Miteff and ended the career of highly regarded prospect George Moore. Yeah he was a little left hook happy but when you possess a weapon that quick and powerful it would be hard not to let it loose often. Good stamina for a man so big and fast, and an excellent parryer and counter-puncher.

For my money, Ali's most impressive performance was vs Terrell. 6'6 Ernie's telephone pole jab, quickness and under-rated body punching were upsetting tons of guys and making everyone look bad, and Ali completly dominated him and showed incredible conditioning, throwing 5-6 punch combinations all night long.

His resume is thread-bare, Demps. His sole noteworthy victory was Terrell, with that result reversed upon return.

Hard to say which was his best performance, there so many great ones.
As for Cleveland Williams, he was obviously past his past. However, he certainly had something left. Williams had looked good enough in his 4 comeback fights to be the #3 Ring Magazine contender.

Ali was razor sharp for that fight. His speed and combination punching was phenomenal.
After goofing around the first few rounds against Folley, he looked great in that fight as well. Of course he looked great in all of his fights from 1964-1967.

His best fight after the comeback against a great opponent was probably the Foreman fight. He actually looked pretty good in all of his 1972 fights against good but not great opponents.

Ambling Alp wrote:Hard to say which was his best performance, there so many great ones.
As for Cleveland Williams, he was obviously past his past. However, he certainly had something left. Williams had looked good enough in his 4 comeback fights to be the #3 Ring Magazine contender.

Ali was razor sharp for that fight. His speed and combination punching was phenomenal.
After goofing around the first few rounds against Folley, he looked great in that fight as well. Of course he looked great in all of his fights from 1964-1967.

His best fight after the comeback against a great opponent was probably the Foreman fight. He actually looked pretty good in all of his 1972 fights against good but not great opponents.

The razor sharpness of Ali in this fight is what I noted in the videos of the fight. His timing speed and cordionation all combined into a continuous single motion. He didn't do anything but set Williams up and hit him. It was like watching a river flow.

He was more accurate than a smart bomb. If you look at his right hand and how he used it in this fight you will see the greatness that is the pre lay off Ali.

It did a number on Folley too. I'm sure the effectiveness of his right hand was related to his overall coordination and his timing as well as pure natural talent.

Hands up who wants to guess the common theme running through Foley & Williams at the time Ali fought them?

No prizes, though :P

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Hands up who wants to guess the common theme running through Foley & Williams at the time Ali fought them?

No prizes, though :P

No prizes, no participation

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Hands up who wants to guess the common theme running through Foley & Williams at the time Ali fought them?

No prizes, though :P

They were older than Ali. But that is not a liability concerning Ali's skills, or a statement about them. He was a champion who fought those who were willing to fight him. I do not recall him ever dodging anyone.

How about Terrell?

Ali was at his absolute best in 1966 & 1967 & I think the Cleveland Williams fight was his absolute peak.

Obviously, he was banned at the height of his powers & theoretically could have been even better in 1968/69/70.

Saying that, he did enjoy a mini renaissance in 1972, when he'd shaken off the ring rust; had filled out properly & was dancing again, right before his legs went again in '73 & pretty much forever.

From the perspective of somebody who wanted him to lose every time he stepped into the ring (except one time), this is easy . . . Frazier I, Norton I, Holmes and Berbick.