BoxRec

Brutu inspired this thread.

Give me Norton on points in a very tough-to-predict matching.

Kenny by decision or possibly by late stoppage when Lyle gasses. Forced to take one I'd agree with the decision. Some rough moments along the way and Lyle taking a beating down the stretch.

This fight couldve gone some ways toward denting the exaggerated image of Norton being useless against punchers, & I think it wouldve.

That said, the risks are very real.

Lyle early or Norton late.

How much of a difference(if any) if Ron Lyle had fought Ken Norton scheduled for 10 rounds in February 1977?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rT ... ,688286&dq

Norton's style was perfect for troubling boxers, but was near useless against punchers, as evidenced by his resume, and Lyle was an older near copy of Foreman without the confidence. Lyle by brutal early KO.

It's nearly impossible to think that Norton would have been able to avoid getting caught with something, even with a timid offense from Lyle.

Ezzard wrote:Lyle early or Norton late.

^^this. If I had to put a bet, I'd go for Lyle early.

To put it in context: Norton had a good 1975 with an easy win over Reco Brooks, and impressive victories over a fading Jerry Quarry and Jose Luis Garcia. Both Garcia and Quarry were shop worn, but Quarry certainly was still dangerous. Lyle went 1-2 in 1975, losing by a wide margin to Jimmy Young and being stopped by Ali in his title shot. But he outlasted Ernie Shavers in a real slugfest. Lyle fought a smart fight against Ali, and was leading on points on two of the three judges' cards before he got tagged in the 11th.

I think Norton's alleged "inability" to handle big punchers is a tad bit overstated. In 1975, I'd tend to favor Norton over the distance in a close fight. These guys are pretty evenly matched, and I have no serious disagreement with anyone who would pick Lyle.

(I admit I might be prejudiced in Norton's favor. I met both men and worked with each briefly. I really liked Norton, and did not care for Lyle. In fact, Lyle is the only guy I ever wanted Ali to beat. )

I would lean toward Norton. Lyle certainly had the power to hurt Norton. However, Norton could also hurt Lyle. Their power and chins were pretty even. Norton was much better defensively and had better stamina. Lyle would have a serious chance, but more often than not Norton would win this.

raylawpc wrote:To put it in context: Norton had a good 1975 with an easy win over Reco Brooks, and impressive victories over a fading Jerry Quarry and Jose Luis Garcia. Both Garcia and Quarry were shop worn, but Quarry certainly was still dangerous. Lyle went 1-2 in 1975, losing by a wide margin to Jimmy Young and being stopped by Ali in his title shot. But he outlasted Ernie Shavers in a real slugfest. Lyle fought a smart fight against Ali, and was leading on points on two of the three judges' cards before he got tagged in the 11th.

I think Norton's alleged "inability" to handle big punchers is a tad bit overstated. In 1975, I'd tend to favor Norton over the distance in a close fight. These guys are pretty evenly matched, and I have no serious disagreement with anyone who would pick Lyle.

(I admit I might be prejudiced in Norton's favor. I met both men and worked with each briefly. I really liked Norton, and did not care for Lyle. In fact, Lyle is the only guy I ever wanted Ali to beat. )

Agreed, Kenny was a genuinely charming gentleman on most occasions , Lyle was just flat out scary and was in a bad mood on the one occasion I crossed paths with him, and I was told..."that's just Ron". I took it that he was often just a "bad attitude walking".

And not far away someone was telling him, "that's just Buzz."

Ken Norton and Ron Lyle once sparred a round.
That was around early February 1971 just after Lyle was released from the
the Colorado State Prision and the tv show 60 minutes was doing a profile on him.
They took him down to the Fifth St gym in Miami to spar 2 rounds with Ali
who was training to fight Frazier in March for the Fight of the Century.
then took him to the Concord hotel in the Catskills to spar with Joe Frazier,
but Yank Durham decided against him sparring with Frazier because he thought
Lyle may get hurt so he sparred one round with Frazier's main sparring partner
Ken Norton.
This sparring session with Norton may or may not be on the tape of the original 1971 60 Minutes
broadcast.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And not far away someone was telling him, "that's just Buzz."

Norton was allergic to punchers & Lyle was a monster, so I suspect that Lyle would have sparked Norton inside of 5 rounds.

PS: Ron Lyle has been getting a lot of attention on here of late; has something happened to him?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And not far away someone was telling him, "that's just Buzz."

Hey, stop havin' fun at my expense. I'ts all fun and games until someone's feelings get hurt.

In this case Lyle was not even aware of my presence as he was busy being ugly with others. Had I made him aware of my presence with some sort of snide comment, I'm sure I bet would have been able to play "jackpot justice" using my smashed face and glasses as winning evidence in front of the jurors.

Norton would win.

But over in the Sim, his ex Manager (Owl) would not let them fight...

BoxBuzz wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And not far away someone was telling him, "that's just Buzz."

Hey, stop havin' fun at my expense. I'ts all fun and games until someone's feelings get hurt.

In this case Lyle was not even aware of my presence as he was busy being ugly with others. Had I made him aware of my presence with some sort of snide comment, I'm sure I bet would have been able to play "jackpot justice" using my smashed face and glasses as winning evidence in front of the jurors.[/quote

I thought it was all fun & games until someone loses an eye.

The arguement that I don't buy is that Lyle was this terrible puncher and that Norton wouldn't be able to handle it and that would be that.

Was Lyle was a harder puncher than Norton? Yes Lyle stopped Shavers. However, Norton stopped Quarry and Lyle couldn't.

Did Lyle have a better chin? Often point out the Foreman and Shavers fights as evidence that Norton couldn't take a punch.
Lyle didn't last much longer against Foreman than Norton did. And Foreman was rusty against Lyle and not against Norton.

Norton was 35 when he fought Earnie Shavers. He would have been 31/32 in 1975 against Lyle. That is a huge difference.
Lyle was hurt worse against Ali than Norton was.

Their chins are pretty even as is their power. Sure Lyle was capable of stopping Norton. However, Norton is going to get the chance to hit Lyle as well.

I'm sorry guys but Norton (who I liked BTW) has a record that speaks for itself. He fought three big punchers Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney and got starched by all three quickly. Why does anyone think that Lyle woud be any different? I mean honestly, what would be different? Lyle couldn't hit as hard? Wouldn't be as agressive? Norton would have been able to avoid getting hit by Lyle? What?

You have to take into account the stage of Norton's career. He was probably past it when he fought Shavers and was way past it when he fought Cooney. He was 35 when he fought Shavers and 37 when he fought Cooney.

Lyle got blown out when he was way over the hill as well. Cooney knocked him out in one round. Lynn Ball knocked Lyle out in two. Should those fights mean much when rating Lyle? No. Same thing with Norton in regards to Shavers and especially Cooney.

Lyle was not in the same league in punching power as Shavers or Foreman. Norton may get hurt but weather the storm.

Lyle certainly could win. However, you also have to consider the possiblity that Norton nails Lyle early and takes him out before Lyle lands any major blows. A likely scenario is that Norton wins this on points.

tagjohnson wrote:I'm sorry guys but Norton (who I liked BTW) has a record that speaks for itself. He fought three big punchers Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney and got starched by all three quickly. Why does anyone think that Lyle woud be any different? I mean honestly, what would be different? Lyle couldn't hit as hard? Wouldn't be as agressive? Norton would have been able to avoid getting hit by Lyle? What?

Bullshit.

Ambling Alp wrote:You have to take into account the stage of Norton's career. He was probably past it when he fought Shavers and was way past it when he fought Cooney. He was 35 when he fought Shavers and 37 when he fought Cooney.

Lyle got blown out when he was way over the hill as well. Cooney knocked him out in one round. Lynn Ball knocked Lyle out in two. Should those fights mean much when rating Lyle? No. Same thing with Norton in regards to Shavers and especially Cooney.

I guess the Garcia fight doesn't count because Norton was too...? Help me out here.

Ambling Alp wrote:Lyle was not in the same league in punching power as Shavers or Foreman.

Based on what? Perhaps you’ve never actually seen the Lyle-Foreman fight?

Oh wait, I just found this.

Ambling Alp wrote:Did Lyle have a better chin? Often point out the Foreman and Shavers fights as evidence that Norton couldn't take a punch.
Lyle didn't last much longer against Foreman than Norton did

And this.

Ambling Alp wrote:Their chins are pretty even as is their power.

OK, so I guess you haven’t actually seen Lyle-Foreman.

I know, I know. Every fight Norton fought against a puncher doesn’t count because he was either too young, or too old, or whatever, while Lyles valiant effort against Foreman doesn’t really mean anything because George was “rusty”. Is there anyone who could really tell if George was rusty or not? It’s not like George ever looked anything like Gene Tunney in the ring. Or even Randy Neumann for that matter.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

tagjohnson wrote:I'm sorry guys but Norton (who I liked BTW) has a record that speaks for itself. He fought three big punchers Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney and got starched by all three quickly. Why does anyone think that Lyle woud be any different? I mean honestly, what would be different? Lyle couldn't hit as hard? Wouldn't be as agressive? Norton would have been able to avoid getting hit by Lyle? What?

Bullshit.

Now that's a great argument.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:You have to take into account the stage of Norton's career. He was probably past it when he fought Shavers and was way past it when he fought Cooney. He was 35 when he fought Shavers and 37 when he fought Cooney.

Lyle got blown out when he was way over the hill as well. Cooney knocked him out in one round. Lynn Ball knocked Lyle out in two. Should those fights mean much when rating Lyle? No. Same thing with Norton in regards to Shavers and especially Cooney.

I guess the Garcia fight doesn't count because Norton was too...? Help me out here.

Ambling Alp wrote:Lyle was not in the same league in punching power as Shavers or Foreman.

Based on what? Perhaps you’ve never actually seen the Lyle-Foreman fight?

Oh wait, I just found this.

Ambling Alp wrote:Did Lyle have a better chin? Often point out the Foreman and Shavers fights as evidence that Norton couldn't take a punch.
Lyle didn't last much longer against Foreman than Norton did

And this.

Ambling Alp wrote:Their chins are pretty even as is their power.

OK, so I guess you haven’t actually seen Lyle-Foreman.

I know, I know. Every fight Norton fought against a puncher doesn’t count because he was either too young, or too old, or whatever, while Lyles valiant effort against Foreman doesn’t really mean anything because George was “rusty”. Is there anyone who could really tell if George was rusty or not? It’s not like George ever looked anything like Gene Tunney in the ring. Or even Randy Neumann for that matter.

Are you the only person alive that has seen Lyle/Foreman? Alp is spot on. He didn't hit as hard as Shavers and Foreman based on eyesight, common sense, and the results of their fights. He hit hard enough to stop kenny, but you have him up on an absurd pedestal as a puncher.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Are you the only person alive that has seen Lyle/Foreman? Alp is spot on. He didn't hit as hard as Shavers and Foreman based on eyesight, common sense, and the results of their fights. He hit hard enough to stop kenny, but you have him up on an absurd pedestal as a puncher.

As I said before, you must not have actually watched the fight. You may have witnessed it, but you didn't actually pay attention. There was little difference between Lyle and Foreman besides George's confidence and greater will to win, and their fight is perfect evidence of that. George wanted it more, and was a little younger. Besides that there really wasn't much difference between the two that night, and the fight itself is the evidence. Or am I wrong and George wasn't really dropped a few times and hurt on a few other ocassions?

Oh yeah, I forgot. George was rusty. He wasn't his normal graceful, precision punching self, so that fight doesn't really mean anything.

And the our difference isn't that I'm putting Lyle on a pedestal. It's that I'm not putting Shavers and Foreman on a pedestal. Yes, they were two of the hardest punchers ever, but they weren't supermen. There are a lot of HWs throughout history whose power was similar to theirs.