BoxRec

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 04:13**

I wondered about this last night. I'd say it's a pretty close call. I don't see too much manlove for Arguello in these here parts, for some reason he doesn't come up as often as pea.

I'd be voting Arguello even if he didn't have my manlove vote, but what say you?

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 05:04**

I think the thing is that Arguello was just as great but had obvious weaknesses. He was a slow starter and could be outmanoeuvred for sections of a fight by a fleet-footed boxer. At his best he always found his rhythm and won. This meant he was in a number of classic fights.

Whittaker liked to get in the lead and then capitalise on opponents’ errors as they tried to play catch up. Whittaker never went 15 rounds.

The records are very close but Arguello’s is a little better.

Whittaker never excited me like Arguello did.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 05:17**

vote then, ese?

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 06:37**

ezz- on questions like these i often look for some kind of tiebreaker, and for me, the timing and historical context of Arguello's three-weight achievement strikes me as more impressive than Pea's over 4 weights (when Arguello had won titles at 3 weights hardly anyone had ever done so). i think a comparison of their roster of victims (which would be another potential tiebreaker) would be a close-run thing.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 06:40**

Whitaker for me, but certainly debatable. I don't think Pea lost a fight until he ran into Tito.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 10:21**

Whitaker. Just a more dominate fighter. I sometimes wonder how many rounds he lost in his entire career.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 10:34**

I went for Whitaker, due to the same sentiments as this fellow:

Seamus wrote:Whitaker. Just a more dominate fighter. I sometimes wonder how many rounds he lost in his entire career.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 11:14**

Whittaker's record wasn't as great as I remembered it being. Formidable fighter though.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 11:34**

Arguello's best win? Olivares?
Whitaker's? ................. *cue someone saying either Chavez or DLH*

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 12:45**

yeah, McGirt's a good call there. surprised you've got Watt as Arguello's top win, but Watt does get a little under-rated, and Arguello absolutely dominated a good fighter.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 12:55**

BarryWashington wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote:yeah, McGirt's a good call there. surprised you've got Watt as Arguello's top win, but Watt does get a little under-rated, and Arguello absolutely dominated a good fighter.
Watt was a very good fighter. I can't call Olivares as Arguello's best win. Don't view Olivares as the same threat once he moved up to FW. Watt, Escalera & Olivares are Arguello's top three wins for me. Doesn't matter the order, so long as Watt is the #1.

I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 13:09**

BarryWashington wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
BarryWashington wrote: Watt was a very good fighter. I can't call Olivares as Arguello's best win. Don't view Olivares as the same threat once he moved up to FW. Watt, Escalera & Olivares are Arguello's top three wins for me. Doesn't matter the order, so long as Watt is the #1.
I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.
Hafey is a good underrated win. Castillo & Boza Edwards are other good ones as well. However, I think Watt is getting underrated here, big time. I think Chacon, Limon, Mancini, Ganigan & Ramirez are all very solid wins, but, I just rate Watt at LW at the time a very good win. Look at Watt's resume & consistency from Claydon up until his fight against Arguello.

I'm quite aware of Jim's resume. The Davis win was a good one. Howard froze up a bit, but that isn't Watt's fault. I recall O'Grady kicking his ass until he got TKO'd by an obvious headbutt.

Mancini would have torn Watt to shreds.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 13:23**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
BarryWashington wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote:yeah, McGirt's a good call there. surprised you've got Watt as Arguello's top win, but Watt does get a little under-rated, and Arguello absolutely dominated a good fighter.
Watt was a very good fighter. I can't call Olivares as Arguello's best win. Don't view Olivares as the same threat once he moved up to FW. Watt, Escalera & Olivares are Arguello's top three wins for me. Doesn't matter the order, so long as Watt is the #1.
I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.

okay, i think i would have Watt above Mancini, but below Escalera and Olivares. then its Chacon or Ramirez, i guess, I'd go Chacon. he pasted Little Red Lopez and beat a few more good fighter. most of what i have seen of Ramirez involves losing efforts- what's his best win, fecked if i know, Rosario i guess.
nice discussion.

Pea's 5 best?

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 13:26**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
BarryWashington wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.
Hafey is a good underrated win. Castillo & Boza Edwards are other good ones as well. However, I think Watt is getting underrated here, big time. I think Chacon, Limon, Mancini, Ganigan & Ramirez are all very solid wins, but, I just rate Watt at LW at the time a very good win. Look at Watt's resume & consistency from Claydon up until his fight against Arguello.
I'm quite aware of Jim's resume. The Davis win was a good one. Howard froze up a bit, but that isn't Watt's fault. I recall O'Grady kicking his ass until he got TKO'd by an obvious headbutt.

Mancini would have torn Watt to shreds.

agree on O'Grady being ahead before the Glaswegian kiss took care of him. Watt getting torn to shreds by Mancini, that goes too far for me. thats a pretty close fight to me, but hey.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 13:51**

Counter-puncher wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
BarryWashington wrote: Watt was a very good fighter. I can't call Olivares as Arguello's best win. Don't view Olivares as the same threat once he moved up to FW. Watt, Escalera & Olivares are Arguello's top three wins for me. Doesn't matter the order, so long as Watt is the #1.
I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.
okay, i think i would have Watt above Mancini, but below Escalera and Olivares. then its Chacon or Ramirez, i guess, I'd go Chacon. he pasted Little Red Lopez and beat a few more good fighter. most of what i have seen of Ramirez involves losing efforts- what's his best win, fecked if i know, Rosario i guess.
nice discussion.

Pea's 5 best?

That was just the five, not in order. I'd rate the first Pryor fight in his top 5.

I'd go Chavez, Pineda, Vazquez, Ramirez & McGirt for pea.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 13:54**

BarryWashington wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'd rate Mancini, Chacon, Ramirez, Olivares & Escalera as Arguello's top 5. Watt is unappreciated, but that is no reason to overrate him. Ruben certainly was greater at bantamweight. But he was a better Feather than Watt was at Lightweight. #1? Really? I don't see that at all.

Edit: Hafey is another good one.
okay, i think i would have Watt above Mancini, but below Escalera and Olivares. then its Chacon or Ramirez, i guess, I'd go Chacon. he pasted Little Red Lopez and beat a few more good fighter. most of what i have seen of Ramirez involves losing efforts- what's his best win, fecked if i know, Rosario i guess.
nice discussion.

Pea's 5 best?
Arguello has a tough resume to assess. Let's look at it deeper (if we shall):

Wins over:

Jose Legra
Art Hafey
Ruben Olivares
Leonel Hernandez
Rigoberto Riasco
Royal Kobayashi
Alfredo Escalera ('78 & '79 - '78 being the better of the two wins)
Rafael Limon
Bobby Chacon
Ruben Castillo
Rolando Navarrete
Cornelius Boza Edwards
Jose Luis Ramirez
Jim Watt
Ray Mancini
Andrew Ganigan

A lot of good names, but, I honestly believe Watt had the best momentum going into his bout against Arguello. Mancini looks like a very good win because of what Mancini went on to do afterwards, but, other than then his meeting against Ramirez, Mancini doesn't have much going into his bout vs. Arguello as opposed to Watt.

It's a tough one to assess and he had a very good career. I can say that out of the names above I will say that the timing of that Navarrete win is actually impressive. Navarrete didn't have that promising of a career, but, things were looking good for him around the time him and Arguello had their encounter.

I would rate the win over ramirez and the fight with Arguello as the two biggest accomplishments of Mancini's career. So i'm not exactly sure, aside from winning the belt, what he did later that was so much better. And i still don't know what Watt did that you're so high on. One thing is for sure, Ray gave Arguello a much tougher fight.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 14:00**

BarryWashington wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote: okay, i think i would have Watt above Mancini, but below Escalera and Olivares. then its Chacon or Ramirez, i guess, I'd go Chacon. he pasted Little Red Lopez and beat a few more good fighter. most of what i have seen of Ramirez involves losing efforts- what's his best win, fecked if i know, Rosario i guess.
nice discussion.

Pea's 5 best?
That was just the five, not in order. I'd rate the first Pryor fight in his top 5.

I'd go Chavez, Pineda, Vazquez, Ramirez & McGirt for pea.
Pineda is definitely an underrated win, but, you feel Ramirez (I or II) & Pineda are more superior to that of Nelson or Haugen?

Yes, I think Pineda was probably Whitaker's finest display of his skills. He absolutely destroyed his body. Azumah was winding down and it was his only fight at 135. I'll take a win over a bigger and stronger guy in a fight he looked more impressive in.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 14:01**

BarryWashington wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
BarryWashington wrote: Arguello has a tough resume to assess. Let's look at it deeper (if we shall):

Wins over:

Jose Legra
Art Hafey
Ruben Olivares
Leonel Hernandez
Rigoberto Riasco
Royal Kobayashi
Alfredo Escalera ('78 & '79 - '78 being the better of the two wins)
Rafael Limon
Bobby Chacon
Ruben Castillo
Rolando Navarrete
Cornelius Boza Edwards
Jose Luis Ramirez
Jim Watt
Ray Mancini
Andrew Ganigan

A lot of good names, but, I honestly believe Watt had the best momentum going into his bout against Arguello. Mancini looks like a very good win because of what Mancini went on to do afterwards, but, other than then his meeting against Ramirez, Mancini doesn't have much going into his bout vs. Arguello as opposed to Watt.

It's a tough one to assess and he had a very good career. I can say that out of the names above I will say that the timing of that Navarrete win is actually impressive. Navarrete didn't have that promising of a career, but, things were looking good for him around the time him and Arguello had their encounter.
I would rate the win over ramirez and the fight with Arguello as the two biggest accomplishments of Mancini's career. So i'm not exactly sure, aside from winning the belt, what he did later that was so much better. And i still don't know what Watt did that you're so high on. One thing is for sure, Ray gave Arguello a much tougher fight.
You're probably right about that. I suppose I was more focused on his ability to rack up a handful of decent wins after the Arguello bout. As opposed to only having one very good win prior to Arguello.

And it wasn't just a win, he beat Ramirez ass and won every round. I never saw anybody dominate Ramirez like that in a toe to toe battle. I was a Boom Boom "hater" back in the day. But he has become vastly underrated.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 17:38**

Whitaker. Quite clearly for me.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 22:46**

Well let's see.....Would Whitaker lose even once to Pryor?

I think not.

Not even if Aaron came armed with his trusty bottle of "Blue Goodness".

Of course Alexis was not at his peak for those fights.

I'm going with Whitaker on this one.

Posted: **26 Aug 2011, 22:50**

You know, I had a think about it.

I really can't decide. Either can the forum, apparently. It's split at 6-6.

Posted: **27 Aug 2011, 06:55**

arguello for me and i agree that arguello's 3 titles at 3 weights is more significant i think he was only the 7 or 8 fighter to do it. whitaker was an outstanding fighter though, but i just favour arguello but it could be said that i'm a touch biased since the thin man is my favourite fighter, i met him a few times and he's was an absolute gent, and a very humble man.

Posted: **27 Aug 2011, 07:58**

Both great fighters and technically sweet pea was near perfect, but Arguello better for me. So exciting and such a warrior.

Posted: **27 Aug 2011, 09:36**

Arguello was much better offensively, Whitaker much better defensively. Arguello wins are a bit more impressive than Whitaker. However, Arguello lost a couple that he should not have. Very close call.

Posted: **27 Aug 2011, 17:13**

Whitaker's best display of skills was against Haugen, in my opinion. I thought he looked just as good against Brazier as he did Pineda at 140. In fact Brazier was one of his best offensive showings, period. Just behind the rematch with McGirt for my money.

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