BoxRec

Roberto Duran was he the best lightweight ever?Would he beat Pac Man

Do you work as an interviewer for Sky Sports ?

Roberto my all time fave and ONE of the best 135 pounders but several fighters from different eras would have beat him, imo.

tysonpower wrote:Roberto Duran was he the best lightweight ever?Would he beat Pac Man

I think he would have beat PAC man for the simple reason that I feel Marquez beat him twice and that Roberto was as Savvy as JMM but maybe a bit faster and more powerful.

Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

coghaugen11 wrote:Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

coghaugen11 wrote:Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote:Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

coghaugen11 wrote:

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote:Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

Can you post the video of Nelson-Gans that you viewed while making inferences about the latter's abilities? I found a version of the bout on YouTube, but the quality is much too low for anyone to make drastic claims about how good either combatant was.

Pacquiao shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence!

Manny had one fight at 135 over Diaz hardly gives him 135 status.

Had both fought each other at any weight Roberto would have stopped him.

coghaugen11 wrote:

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote:Duran was beating the prime Marvin Hagler after 12 rounds....Marvin Hagler! He beat the prime Ray Leonard. Duran's skill level withstood the aging process, he was WBC middleweight champion at almost 40 years old. He's knocked a horse out cold and his whole life revolved around fighting (he once put five guys in a hospital as a result of a street fight while walking his girlfriend home). He dropped Iran Barkley FFS, and took Barkley's punches! Barkley, a massive middle and proper strong f-in animal!

All Pacquaio has is speed in this fight, but what's speed when you've got the most perfectly-timed head movement while closing the distance, like Duran had?

Pacman is terrific, but Duran? Man.


Duran is certainly one of the best lightweights there was but there's Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans - some of the renowned best fighters lb4lb in history in ability on film. Henry Armstrong also came through 135lbs.

Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

Not meaning to put down Joe Gans, but that is ridiculous. Gans was good of his time, but would anyone seriously suggest that James J Jeffries would beat Lennox Lewis, which would be equivalent, because he smashed up everybody before he retired for six years.

Battling Nelson knocked out Gans twice, so while probably one of the few fights that were filmed, it is hardly a great example. And Nelson was completely two-bob in terms of great fighters. He was knocked out by Owen Moran, who very few would have in a British all-time top 10.

Here he is getting clobbered by Terry McGovern (who he outweighed by something like 10lb). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9O9DlFq5FM
And this way him in his mid-20sm supposedly his peak. Gans was good but if he hadn't been the first black champion, he would not be spoken about today.

Pacquiao is an all time great. To suggest he "just has speed" shows that for some reason you just don't like the guy. But, I suppose, Usain Bolt "just has speed".

Manny Pacman is one of the very few all time greats.
Sure, some of his biggest wins are misleading ...weight issues etc.
That said, he still beat what was in front of him.

Duran too was great. But he did struggle with lesser fighters than Manny.
Styles make fights. It would have been a real hard fight for both guys.

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote:

gobbles wrote:
Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

Not meaning to put down Joe Gans, but that is ridiculous. Gans was good of his time, but would anyone seriously suggest that James J Jeffries would beat Lennox Lewis, which would be equivalent, because he smashed up everybody before he retired for six years.

Battling Nelson knocked out Gans twice, so while probably one of the few fights that were filmed, it is hardly a great example. And Nelson was completely two-bob in terms of great fighters. He was knocked out by Owen Moran, who very few would have in a British all-time top 10.

Here he is getting clobbered by Terry McGovern (who he outweighed by something like 10lb). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9O9DlFq5FMAnd this way him in his mid-20sm supposedly his peak. Gans was good but if he hadn't been the first black champion, he would not be spoken about today.

Pacquiao is an all time great. To suggest he "just has speed" shows that for some reason you just don't like the guy. But, I suppose, Usain Bolt "just has speed".

It is widely believed that Gans took a dive in this fight.

These threads always insult the achievements of the game's greats. Why? Most posters have little knowledge of fighters from past generations and plump for those fighters they do know about, so Butterbean would have done this and that to Tommy Burns because he weighed 400 pounds or Floyd Mayweather would have picked off Henry Armstrong because Armstrong is dead and Mayweather is fighting Victor Ortiz (cough, cough).
To answer the question: Pacquiao would only beat Duran if he moved. If he walked into Duran, forget it!


PS: George Dixon was the first black champion.

Nigel1001 wrote:Manny would be knocked the eff out!

MANNY IS NOT AN ALL TIME GREAT!

Who him beat? DLH? Weight drained and past it. Cotto already mashed up. Margarito already mashed up.

Duran is a legend.

duran beat some shoddy challengers defending his lightweight title.

lost once to the best guy he fought in dejesus.

hate the way he gets put on a pedestal.

i think pac and whitaker would have beat him.

MachoMan09 wrote:Only one person (hitman_hatton1) has picked Manny, bennie. So I'm not sure where you're coming from. I'd say that the reverse is more prevalent and people are, if anything, overly nostalgic.

pac loved fighting brawlers like duran.

yeah duran was very good.

but slick boxers gave him issues.

benitez, laing, dejesus (1st fight), leonard (2nd fight)

pac has proved he can tough it out.

i'd have no doubts picking him over primetime duran. ;;-)

Duran at lightweight was the single most terrifying fighter I have ever seen at any weight. though, of course, I can't go back as far as bennie can on that score

Ketchel wrote:

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote: I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

Not meaning to put down Joe Gans, but that is ridiculous. Gans was good of his time, but would anyone seriously suggest that James J Jeffries would beat Lennox Lewis, which would be equivalent, because he smashed up everybody before he retired for six years.

Battling Nelson knocked out Gans twice, so while probably one of the few fights that were filmed, it is hardly a great example. And Nelson was completely two-bob in terms of great fighters. He was knocked out by Owen Moran, who very few would have in a British all-time top 10.

Here he is getting clobbered by Terry McGovern (who he outweighed by something like 10lb). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9O9DlFq5FMAnd this way him in his mid-20s, supposedly his peak. Gans was good but if he hadn't been the first black champion, he would not be spoken about today.

Pacquiao is an all time great. To suggest he "just has speed" shows that for some reason you just don't like the guy. But, I suppose, Usain Bolt "just has speed".

It is widely believed that Gans took a dive in this fight.

Didn't look like a dive to me, looked like he got obliterated.

Ketchel wrote:

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote: I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

Not meaning to put down Joe Gans, but that is ridiculous. Gans was good of his time, but would anyone seriously suggest that James J Jeffries would beat Lennox Lewis, which would be equivalent, because he smashed up everybody before he retired for six years.

Battling Nelson knocked out Gans twice, so while probably one of the few fights that were filmed, it is hardly a great example. And Nelson was completely two-bob in terms of great fighters. He was knocked out by Owen Moran, who very few would have in a British all-time top 10.

Here he is getting clobbered by Terry McGovern (who he outweighed by something like 10lb). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9O9DlFq5FMAnd this way him in his mid-20sm supposedly his peak. Gans was good but if he hadn't been the first black champion, he would not be spoken about today.

Pacquiao is an all time great. To suggest he "just has speed" shows that for some reason you just don't like the guy. But, I suppose, Usain Bolt "just has speed".

It is widely believed that Gans took a dive in this fight.

Yep, definitely a dive. Gans let McGovern have free body shots on him, which hurt!

coghaugen11 wrote:

Ketchel wrote:

gobbles wrote: Not meaning to put down Joe Gans, but that is ridiculous. Gans was good of his time, but would anyone seriously suggest that James J Jeffries would beat Lennox Lewis, which would be equivalent, because he smashed up everybody before he retired for six years.

Battling Nelson knocked out Gans twice, so while probably one of the few fights that were filmed, it is hardly a great example. And Nelson was completely two-bob in terms of great fighters. He was knocked out by Owen Moran, who very few would have in a British all-time top 10.

Here he is getting clobbered by Terry McGovern (who he outweighed by something like 10lb). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9O9DlFq5FMAnd this way him in his mid-20sm supposedly his peak. Gans was good but if he hadn't been the first black champion, he would not be spoken about today.

Pacquiao is an all time great. To suggest he "just has speed" shows that for some reason you just don't like the guy. But, I suppose, Usain Bolt "just has speed".

It is widely believed that Gans took a dive in this fight.

Yep, definitely a dive. Gans let McGovern have free body shots on him, which hurt![/quote]

In order to make a dive convincing what do you do? Fall down as soon as your opponent comes at you?

At the time the consensus was that this fight was fake. Down through the last 100 years there has always been doubt about this fight. No smoke without fire.

gobbles wrote:

coghaugen11 wrote:

gobbles wrote:
Are you suggesting Pacquiao wouldn't beat Joe Gans?

I wasn't, but no he wouldn't.

Gans' set-up feinting, foot speed and finishing cross against Kid Herman was the best I've ever seen.

Against the great Battling Nelson, he was throwing picture-perfect 4-5 shot combos that was unheard of in that era. Jack Johnson used to just catch punches in the air because they only threw one or two at a time back then, if they threw 3 or more back then Jack Johnson would have had some major trouble (Against Patterson, Ali, Tyson or Holyfield he wouldn't stand a prayers hope.). Joe Gans was landing beautiful combos on a great fighter, and it's there for all to see. He had a modern style and multi-layered defence of parrying and/or blocking and/or evading. He had power in both hands, knocking down the granite-chinned Nelson with each hand.

His punches were as fast as Pac's and reflexes as fast as Mayweather's, and it's quite clear to see on the film we have.

He's just too good allaround for Manny.

To suggest he "just has speed"

I was suggesting he only has speed over Duran. In skill, power, stamina, aggression etc it is Roberto

Both are great fighters.

To be honest I've never seen an offensive fighter with as good a defence as Duran. Like Bennie says anyone who goes to Duran is in trouble. The greatest pure aggression fighter is probably/arguably Armstrong and I'd see him and Roberto as a 50-50 fight.

I'd plump for Duran nine times out of 10 in this fight, he was a beast at the weight

Some great debate though

tysonpower wrote:Roberto Duran was he the best lightweight ever?Would he beat Pac Man

Benny Leonard would beat both.