BoxRec

Super middle, ward present form, and calzaghe at his peak !
I really couldn't call anything else then a draw.
Thoughts ?

jessi wrote:Super middle, ward present form, and calzaghe at his peak !
I really couldn't call anything else then a draw.
Thoughts ?

Calzaghe, wide UD, possibly with Ward looking quite bad come the end. Don't get me wrong, Ward was quite impressive in the early rounds this evening - though I had it pretty close in the end as he tired up - but Calzaghe was far quicker, crisper in his punches and had the power to hurt Ward, which could not be said in the reverse. He was also a superb reader of opponents and having seen the last three rounds and how Ward flagged under aggressive pressure, would be able to batter him back and around.

Is it even possible to be 'far quicker' than Ward? I would favor Joe, but I wouldn't expect a one-sided battering.

And the fight tonight wasn't close

I'm not a fan of Joe but I believe he would beat ward.

crusader wrote:Is it even possible to be 'far quicker' than Ward? I would favor Joe, but I wouldn't expect a one-sided battering.

And the fight tonight wasn't close

Yeah, I reckon it is - Ward is a smart mover, but he doesn't have the same blistering hand speed as Joe did.

And the fight - it was and wasn't. If you view it as 36 minutes of action, yeah, it was conclusively Ward's fight but if you view the 12 rounds on their individual merits then 7-5 was a very fair score.

40+ Bernard Hopkins didn't have the same speed as Joe, Robin Reid didn't have the same speed as Joe. As Vernon Forrest said, there are ways and means to negate for speed.

I aint saying Ward would beat Joe (it would be a fight I would love to see), but at the moment we've had a fighter who has fought recently - Froch, Green, Abraham, Kessler and Bika (that aint a bad list) and has lost IMO less than a hand full of rounds against the lot. He is very hard to beat, very hard to catch clean.

stujones wrote:40+ Bernard Hopkins didn't have the same speed as Joe, Robin Reid .

Hopkins = Spoiler
Reid = fought out of his skin but didn't deserve the win.

jessi wrote:Super middle, ward present form, and calzaghe at his peak !
I really couldn't call anything else then a draw.
Thoughts ?

See my first post on this.

stujones wrote:40+ Bernard Hopkins didn't have the same speed as Joe, Robin Reid didn't have the same speed as Joe. As Vernon Forrest said, there are ways and means to negate for speed.

I aint saying Ward would beat Joe (it would be a fight I would love to see), but at the moment we've had a fighter who has fought recently - Froch, Green, Abraham, Kessler and Bika (that aint a bad list) and has lost IMO less than a hand full of rounds against the lot. He is very hard to beat, very hard to catch clean.

But Hopkins and Reid didn't beat Joe either - and Hopkins, whatever American judges might have though, didn;t even come particularly close, whilst Reid fought him well before his peak. Its all well and good saying that speed can be negated - it can - but Joe has enough in every other department to beat Ward.

I was interested to hear the Sky commentary team arguing that Ward was a #1 P4P contender - I nearly feinted!

When was Joe's peak exactly. I keep hearing different dates from people. Was it the Woodhall fight (where he did lose a few rounds), was it the Brewer fight (where he did lose a few rounds)? Mitchell? People say he was in decline when he beat Lacy and Kessler (due to hand trouble).

Even Joe himself has admitted that the Hopkins fight "could have gone either way".

Yep, Hopkins is a spoiler Jon, you don't think Ward cannot fight like that. Absolutely Ward could fight like this, Ward has shown throughout the super 6 how good he is at getting people off their game plan and beating them with up close by being up to tie them up effectively and legally.

stujones wrote:When was Joe's peak exactly. I keep hearing different dates from people. Was it the Woodhall fight (where he did lose a few rounds), was it the Brewer fight (where he did lose a few rounds)? Mitchell? People say he was in decline when he beat Lacy and Kessler (due to hand trouble).

Well, for me it would have been in the period between Lacy and Kessler. Lets take that version for now - how on earth can anyone see Ward coping with him?

calzaghe would beat Ward his handspeed was blistering and he had the boxing brain to out think ward. Wards a thinker in the ring with crazy talent but if you put a quicker guy in there with a better brain then he would find it alot harder. Reality is Ward didnt fight the same kessler that Calzaghe fought, kesslers management at the time ruined him as a fighter that combined with a spate of injuries.

Ward v Bute is the fight i want to see now - Bute has great hand speed, is technically very good and can bang.

Well for my money, Ward did a better job against Kessler than Joe did. Styles make fights, and I think Ward's style would give Joe all kinds of problems. Kessler could catch Joe, regularly at the start of the fight. Ward's quicker than Mikkel, defensively better than Mikkel - and surprisingly strong (despite looking small) at the weight.

Both of them have fantastic unbeaten long records - I wouldn't think it is a forgone conclusion either way. I think it would be incredibly tough to call. For me though, when I see how they stood against the very best in their division - I would already say Ward has fought as many "elite" Super Middleweights as Joe did. I would say, bar Lacy (who was had his limitations) Ward has done a better job. Also, when I look at stylewise - I see the awkardness of Hopkins in there, the boxing brain of Hopkins in there - with better stamina and speed.

Ward is a lot better than Kessler who gave Joe a hard, hard fight. Its an incredibly tough call, but I would give the edge to Ward. At the moment, he looks the harder fighter to beat. He's fought different styles of fighters now and been equally comfortable beating the lot of them.

stujones wrote:Well for my money, Ward did a better job against Kessler than Joe did. Styles make fights, and I think Ward's style would give Joe all kinds of problems. Kessler could catch Joe, regularly at the start of the fight. Ward's quicker than Mikkel, defensively better than Mikkel - and surprisingly strong (despite looking small) at the weight.

Both of them have fantastic unbeaten long records - I wouldn't think it is a forgone conclusion either way. I think it would be incredibly tough to call. For me though, when I see how they stood against the very best in their division - I would already say Ward has fought as many "elite" Super Middleweights as Joe did. I would say, bar Lacy (who was had his limitations) Ward has done a better job. Also, when I look at stylewise - I see the awkardness of Hopkins in there, the boxing brain of Hopkins in there - with better stamina and speed.

Ward is a lot better than Kessler who gave Joe a hard, hard fight. Its an incredibly tough call, but I would give the edge to Ward. At the moment, he looks the harder fighter to beat. He's fought different styles of fighters now and been equally comfortable beating the lot of them.

Ward did not fight the same kessler as calzaghe the guy was ring rusty and he's a bit shot, the fact he is still mentioned among the top SMW fighters only shows how good he actually was.

Watch the calzaghe fight then kesslers recent fights and see how flat footed he is now, also how that extra edge he had in speed and accuracy has gone.

kingfinn wrote:

stujones wrote:Well for my money, Ward did a better job against Kessler than Joe did. Styles make fights, and I think Ward's style would give Joe all kinds of problems. Kessler could catch Joe, regularly at the start of the fight. Ward's quicker than Mikkel, defensively better than Mikkel - and surprisingly strong (despite looking small) at the weight.

Both of them have fantastic unbeaten long records - I wouldn't think it is a forgone conclusion either way. I think it would be incredibly tough to call. For me though, when I see how they stood against the very best in their division - I would already say Ward has fought as many "elite" Super Middleweights as Joe did. I would say, bar Lacy (who was had his limitations) Ward has done a better job. Also, when I look at stylewise - I see the awkardness of Hopkins in there, the boxing brain of Hopkins in there - with better stamina and speed.

Ward is a lot better than Kessler who gave Joe a hard, hard fight. Its an incredibly tough call, but I would give the edge to Ward. At the moment, he looks the harder fighter to beat. He's fought different styles of fighters now and been equally comfortable beating the lot of them.

Ward did not fight the same kessler as calzaghe the guy was ring rusty and he's a bit shot, the fact he is still mentioned among the top SMW fighters only shows how good he actually was.

Watch the calzaghe fight then kesslers recent fights and see how flat footed he is now, also how that extra edge he had in speed and accuracy has gone.

No, I agree there - however you cannot not be impressed with what Ward has achieved in the tournament. Not only did he win it, but he won it by a country mile. Nobody even came close to beating him. The only fighter in the tournament that might have run him close was Dirrell. I do think Dirrell is quicker both in handspeed and footwork - but Ward has negated every style thrown at him so far, and did it with ease.

Really? The Kessler who Ward fought was nowhere near the level of the one Joe did - and Joe went in front of Kessler's home fans to do it. How that Kessler would have done against Ward in that setting, now that is an interesting question, but there is no way that you can say at this stage that Ward would be a tougher fight.

Your argument for Ward - "at the moment he looks the harder fighter to beat" is one of the weakest imagineable - look at all the variables in the fight and Joe has the edge (speed, fitness, power, ring smarts), and you let on yourself that Ward would only be able to win the fight by old manning it. One, in this kind of theoretical match up, that scenario should not be permitted, and two, if that is what you accept he needs to resort to, how can you possibly give the guy a chance in the fight?

Bear in mind here that Froch - a good, brave fighter but not that quick - managed to hit Ward numerous times in the second half of the fight. If - and its a very likely if - Joe did the same with his fast hands and cutting punches, Ward would be cut to ribbons by the end.

I'm sure I saw Kessler in Wales

Tykemania wrote:Really? The Kessler who Ward fought was nowhere near the level of the one Joe did - and Joe went in front of Kessler's home fans to do it. How that Kessler would have done against Ward in that setting, now that is an interesting question, but there is no way that you can say at this stage that Ward would be a tougher fight.

Your argument for Ward - "at the moment he looks the harder fighter to beat" is one of the weakest imagineable - look at all the variables in the fight and Joe has the edge (speed, fitness, power, ring smarts), and you let on yourself that Ward would only be able to win the fight by old manning it. One, in this kind of theoretical match up, that scenario should not be permitted, and two, if that is what you accept he needs to resort to, how can you possibly give the guy a chance in the fight?

Bear in mind here that Froch - a good, brave fighter but not that quick - managed to hit Ward numerous times in the second half of the fight. If - and its a very likely if - Joe did the same with his fast hands and cutting punches, Ward would be cut to ribbons by the end.

Joe fought Kessler in Denmark did he?

We'll agree to disagree, I don't know how you can say Joe has the edge in ring smarts. I recall Joe being countered frequently against Kessler, Reid, Hopkins. Even Richie Woodhall, Charles Brewer and Byron Mitchell caught Joe quite frequently. They were applauding Joe's chin in the Brewer fight - yep and it was fantastic.... Ward is a different proposition all together from these. If Charles Brewer can catch Joe cleanly Ward can aswell - and Ward is alot harder than these to hit cleanly.

Joe never had the greatest defense in the world, it was a defense that got penetrated frequently in all except for one of his world title fights against true world class opposition (that being Lacy) - I actually disagree with the notion Joe had the better ring smarts than Ward and thats why I would give the edge to Ward in winning it. Not old manning it, just being better defensively - carrying out the game plan that Hopkins did for the full 12 rounds, being quicker and fitter and sharper than that version of Bernard.

Final round wrote:I'm sure I saw Kessler in Wales

Wierd, now I come to think about it, I was at the bloody fight!

I did, in my slight defence, get rather hammered afterward!

stujones wrote:Joe never had the greatest defense in the world, it was a defense that got penetrated frequently in all except for one of his world title fights against true world class opposition (that being Lacy) - I actually disagree with the notion Joe had the better ring smarts than Ward and thats why I would give the edge to Ward in winning it. Not old manning it, just being better defensively - carrying out the game plan that Hopkins did for the full 12 rounds, being quicker and fitter and sharper than that version of Bernard.

We'll have to agree to differ, because I just cannot see Ward having a chance.

Tykemania wrote:

Final round wrote:I'm sure I saw Kessler in Wales

Wierd, now I come to think about it, I was at the bloody fight!

I did, in my slight defence, get rather hammered afterward!

:P

stujones wrote:

kingfinn wrote:

stujones wrote:Well for my money, Ward did a better job against Kessler than Joe did. Styles make fights, and I think Ward's style would give Joe all kinds of problems. Kessler could catch Joe, regularly at the start of the fight. Ward's quicker than Mikkel, defensively better than Mikkel - and surprisingly strong (despite looking small) at the weight.

Both of them have fantastic unbeaten long records - I wouldn't think it is a forgone conclusion either way. I think it would be incredibly tough to call. For me though, when I see how they stood against the very best in their division - I would already say Ward has fought as many "elite" Super Middleweights as Joe did. I would say, bar Lacy (who was had his limitations) Ward has done a better job. Also, when I look at stylewise - I see the awkardness of Hopkins in there, the boxing brain of Hopkins in there - with better stamina and speed.

Ward is a lot better than Kessler who gave Joe a hard, hard fight. Its an incredibly tough call, but I would give the edge to Ward. At the moment, he looks the harder fighter to beat. He's fought different styles of fighters now and been equally comfortable beating the lot of them.

Ward did not fight the same kessler as calzaghe the guy was ring rusty and he's a bit shot, the fact he is still mentioned among the top SMW fighters only shows how good he actually was.

Watch the calzaghe fight then kesslers recent fights and see how flat footed he is now, also how that extra edge he had in speed and accuracy has gone.

No, I agree there - however you cannot not be impressed with what Ward has achieved in the tournament. Not only did he win it, but he won it by a country mile. Nobody even came close to beating him. The only fighter in the tournament that might have run him close was Dirrell. I do think Dirrell is quicker both in handspeed and footwork - but Ward has negated every style thrown at him so far, and did it with ease.

Oh dont get me wrong im very impressed with ward, he didnt just win ,the tournament was a walk int the park for him. i just dont think he would have beaten calzaghe. Calzaghe especially towards to end of his career had the ability to adapt to a fighter and the tools to implement those changes.

stujones wrote:

Tykemania wrote:Really? The Kessler who Ward fought was nowhere near the level of the one Joe did - and Joe went in front of Kessler's home fans to do it. How that Kessler would have done against Ward in that setting, now that is an interesting question, but there is no way that you can say at this stage that Ward would be a tougher fight.

Your argument for Ward - "at the moment he looks the harder fighter to beat" is one of the weakest imagineable - look at all the variables in the fight and Joe has the edge (speed, fitness, power, ring smarts), and you let on yourself that Ward would only be able to win the fight by old manning it. One, in this kind of theoretical match up, that scenario should not be permitted, and two, if that is what you accept he needs to resort to, how can you possibly give the guy a chance in the fight?

Bear in mind here that Froch - a good, brave fighter but not that quick - managed to hit Ward numerous times in the second half of the fight. If - and its a very likely if - Joe did the same with his fast hands and cutting punches, Ward would be cut to ribbons by the end.

Joe fought Kessler in Denmark did he?

We'll agree to disagree, I don't know how you can say Joe has the edge in ring smarts. I recall Joe being countered frequently against Kessler, Reid, Hopkins. Even Richie Woodhall, Charles Brewer and Byron Mitchell caught Joe quite frequently. They were applauding Joe's chin in the Brewer fight - yep and it was fantastic.... Ward is a different proposition all together from these. If Charles Brewer can catch Joe cleanly Ward can aswell - and Ward is alot harder than these to hit cleanly.

Joe never had the greatest defense in the world, it was a defense that got penetrated frequently in all except for one of his world title fights against true world class opposition (that being Lacy) - I actually disagree with the notion Joe had the better ring smarts than Ward and thats why I would give the edge to Ward in winning it. Not old manning it, just being better defensively - carrying out the game plan that Hopkins did for the full 12 rounds, being quicker and fitter and sharper than that version of Bernard.

I think in reality Hopkins knew he had no chance of outboxing calzaghe at any point in his career so pulled out of a prime for prime fight and then opted to try and cheat a win when he was struggling to get big fights. A better ref than cortez and calzaghe would have boxed hopkins head off.

I think the reid fight was before Calzaghe hit his peak he learnt to adapt to any fighter later on in his career once his punch power / hands started to wain. He was a bit of a puncher at the start of his career and a tactician towards the end.

calzaghe got tagged by the fighters because he liked a tear up, he could have negated their punches but liked having a punch up, thats what made him great to watch, when he needed to pull the rounds back in he would and stick the points in the bank, then the rest of the time he was happy to go toe to toe.

I agree with everything you say there Kingfinn with the exception of your first paragraph - which being honest I think is a little rediculous. Hopkins as light heavyweight champion had plenty of other options available to him - he fought Pavlik after stinking the place out against Joe.

I definately don't think Hopkins knew he had "no chance" against Joe (you make it sound like they were leagues apart). Hopkins tried to "cheat" to win - I don't think Hopkins tried to look for a DQ win myself but that's my take. I'll agree to disagree.

I largely agree with the rest of the post - but not always did he get tagged do to wanting a tear up. The Hopkins fight being an example of this.

I'm very impressed with Ward, both as a boxer and as a person, seems a very humble and decent lad considering the amount of talent he has.

Would he have beaten a prime Calzaghe? I don't think so. As has been said previously, Joe was a master at adapting to different styles and finding a way to be better on the night, he would have had to perform to the absolute maximum of his abilities but I believe he would have won.

I could be wrong but I get the feeling Stu will go to any length to argue against Calzaghe. I'm sure a few years ago when Calzaghes career was being debated (again) it was him who said that Joe's "actual" record is 43-2-1 as he "clearly" lost to Reid and Hopkins and that the Kessler fight was a draw! If that wasn't you Stu then of course, I apologise for the mistaken identity